need help buying a new motherboard

[Muddy Buttslipper]

i don't want to annoy 12' again.................

I don't know dickall about the advantages of certain things, like a Pentium 4 over a 3. I think i have a 2 right now. I really want something with atleast 3 PCI slots, ummm 3 of those other longer ones (i'm a sped, yeah) and USB, i have no USB right now.

can anyone anyone help me? i'm checking out pricewatch and i'm so daft about it all!

[Muddy Buttslipper]

3 PCI - PCI slots, got that
1 AGP - What is this?
Two 184-pin DDR - ???
1CNR slot - ????

BTW: I have 1 Cd-rom drive, a CDRW drive umm a modem, a LAN card, soundcard, video card, 2 printers, webcam. 2 harddrives. can't think of anything else with slots.

[Paul]

You won't be able to just upgrade your motherboard to a new model without changing your memory at least and maybe your CPU.

If you have a P2 it's unlikely to work in a new board designed for 2Ghz CPUs and DDR memory. Older PC100/PC133 SDRAM is 168 pin and the DDR is 184 pin and much faster PC2100/PC2700 spec.

All boards will allow up to 4 IDE (ATAPI) devices (CD, CDRW, disk). Are all your expansion cards PCI or are there any ISA?

AGP is the better option for video card. Your old PCI/ISA card will work fine but it will be wasting a slot when you could be using the dedicated AGP slot instead.

If you intend to upgrade the whole thing it's probably best to take it to someone who can advise on the best options for what you already have in there.

[Muddy Buttslipper]

aha! someone answered me! hehe

well yeah i'm upgrading CPU's, so I'm looking at motherboard "combos" i guess.

This is what I know from memory (i'm at work) I have 3 or 4 PCI pieces, and 2 of the longer ones (a LAN card and a comm port, does that make any sense? are these ISA?)

i do have a serial mouse and it seems that most want PS/2, but that's not a big deal, i can just get a converter thingy

i guess i want to know what CPU is better as well, Intel, Pentium, Celeron, ALL jibberish! i bet they're the same damn thing too!

[Paul]

AMD Athlon CPUs are good value for money these days. I have an AMD Athlon XP 1.7Ghz Or the cut down AMD Duron models are worth considering.

The difference between Intel Celeron and full Pentiums is the amount of level 2 cache memory built onto the chip. The Celeron has less making it less efficient. If you're going to upgrade I'd avoid the Celeron CPUs personally. I'd rather go for an AMD Athlon.

Most new boards no longer have any of the old ISA (8/16 bit or long) slots. A few do. You'll need to check that out carefully if you intend to use the old cards.

An excellent guide to hardware can be found at Toms Hardware Guide here :-

http://www.tomshardware.com/

A guide to D.I.Y. PC systems is here :-

http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/01q1/010115/index.html

But it can get pretty technical.

You need to be sure you get the right match between motherboard, CPU and memory. Most other cards will run on any just about board if you have the right number and type of expansions slots.

[Paul]

Plus... cooling one of the new 1-2Ghz plus CPUs is an issue. You MUST have a good cooling fan otherwise it will melt on startup. Most new boards will not fire up unless there is a fan connected to the fan header socket. A good cooling fan can cost $40 or more alone.

[Hedonist]

its gonna end up being a bigger upgrade than you expected.

going from a P2, youll be best off (and probly *required*) to get board, cpu and memory all at once. a case is also highly advised as it sounds like you have an old ATX box now. not only will that present size issues, but you dont wanna run a P4 or athlon on a power supply that is years old and probly lower wattage than advised (need 300W). new cpus are a lot more picky about voltage/temp than old ones.

chances are your current memeory wont work with most modern boards, and even if it does, it'll drag the new parts down to its speed.

cpus - if you have money to blow, get intel. if not, for practical purposes, amd is just as fast for less money.

if you dont have an agp video card, you might want to look into that too. 8mb ones (assuming thats what you have now) are dirt cheap.

and anything ISA ... trash :oP if you cannot afford to phase out ISA stuff, hold out on upgrading until you can. otherwise youre gonna spend a bunch of money and may not see much change.

if i were to buy a board for myself today, it would be the MSI KT3 Ultra ARU. not the best there is, but a good deal for the price.


best thing you can do is take it to a shop and ask advice from a tech. calling may not do. theyll need to see it.

[Paul]

Bottom line... unless you are really sure about what you want and how to do it don't try it yourself. It could end up costing you a lot more than taking it to someone who knows.

[devnull]

i've been fantasizing about building a new computer for myself all year, however $$$ always stops me. i want a pentium 4 1.5 with an asus mb + ddr 333 ram. i'm broke right now though. :(

i recommend you buy a prepackaged deal. paul's right about the amd's being a great deal. the pentium 4's may be easier to find though.

i always recommend dells to peeps because they are consistently excellent quality and their support is pretty good, and the prices are pretty good compared to other places. you can customize your dream machine online.

[devnull]

Originally posted by Paul
Bottom line... unless you are really sure about what you want and how to do it don't try it yourself. It could end up costing you a lot more than taking it to someone who knows.

i couldn't agree more.

[HanksterZ]

</b><font face="Comic Sans MS" color="004000" size=3>Yes, as Paul has suggested, look at the Athlon XP processors. I'm using a computer I got just over half a year ago with an Athlon XP 1800+ cpu and RAM of 512. It has never froze on me nor given me any of the problems I previously had with Pentium processors, or a standard Athlon 1 GHz processor. Not only is the Athlon XP processor superior when it comes to multi-tasking, but the fastest processor I am currently aware of is the Athlon XP 2200+ which smokes anything Intel is selling for more money. Soyo made some good boards for Athlon processors at decent prices, last time I checked. Do make sure your new board will take the new, faster DDR memory, and allows you to upgrade both cpu and RAM later.

If you don't have the dinero to custom build your computer, you can find good deals on the net. I picked up this Athlon XP 1800+, 512 RAM, 16X DVD, 40 GB Hard Drive AM-Comps computer for a total of only $479 (no tax) by bidding smart at www.ubid.com (a link I followed from here), and immediately added a 24x10x40x CDRW I picked up at PC Club for $99 in January. That's a lot less than what I spent building a Pentium III 800 MHz, but my build job had a custom case and an ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon video capture card, plus other goodies.

Have fun.</font>

[devnull]

actually i think the pentium 4 has surpassed the athlon again, thanks to the new faster front side bus. however, the benchmarks i've seen have all used rdram, so that may not be the case with the cheaper and more commonly available ddr ram.

[HanksterZ]

Originally posted by redstamen
actually i think the pentium 4 has surpassed the athlon again, thanks to the new faster front side bus. however, the benchmarks i've seen have all used rdram, so that may not be the case with the cheaper and more commonly available ddr ram.

</b><font face="Comic Sans MS" color="004000" size=3>Isn't it amazing how fast computer gear advances? You literally have to be in the biz, or shopping, to keep track of what's the latest. ;)

But, unless they have a new P5-styled generation of P4, I'd think the Athlon XP will still outperform Intel in multi-tasking.</font>

[devnull]

yes, hanksterz, it is mind boggling! i build computers (among other things) for my job, so i have to keep up with it. but like, every WEEK, the scene will totally change!

also, i should've admitted before -- i don't know how much stock i put in performance benchmarks. they all seem pretty vague, and limiting. it's tough to draw conclusions from them, because i think the test is probably inadequate.

from what i've seen of both intel and amd processors from the last six months, they are both pretty blazingly fast.

[Paul]

Is it just that people don't read the posts that have already made or is there an echo in here? :p

I would refute the "Intel is best claim" based on the fact that XP is optimised for it. In my book that makes me even less likely to go with a P4 because there's no way in hell I'm moving to Windows XP. Windows 2000 Professional does the job just fine on an AMD Athlon for me. XP is the devil ;) I'd rather move to Linux before touching it.

[twelvefoot]

regardless of what type of board you buy...

buy a abit, or tyan board...those are the best manufactors...

[Muddy Buttslipper]

holy jesussandals hehe LOTS of people are helping me today!

welp, i don't want to have someone build it for me. i can do it, i've done it before, it's just been years. i just need to refresh my memory on what i'm doing here.

letsee, #1 I am running Win 98 and I'm gonna put a new OS on soon, I don't even know which since I'm so behind on the current shit here. Any suggestions? I gotta figure that out before I buy something anyways

#2 I am going to buy the 'combo'. I know I'll have to get new memory, processor, and board, all together.
#3 I actually don't use the ISA.....the only thing I've got hooked up in the one of two slots is an extra comm port (i think that's what you'd call it, it's for a printer) which i really don't even need b/c i have a switchbox.

#4 I don't think i need to get a new case, I bought a new one a year ago and it's pretty standard, I think. I tried finding the place where i bought it online but I couldn't :) but i will have to buy a power box i'm sure.

Currently my computer is an AMD (K6?) and I'm not all that impressed with it. One of my PCI slots is shot (which could very well have been my fault) I just need something with a bigger kick on it. and these days, as soon as i buy something, i'll be 20 years behind hah!

Faster hard drives might also be in order. Ultra-ATA 100, at least. I just bought an IBM HD, from their website it says:
Capacity - up to 120 GB (mine's 80)
Rotational Speed - 7200 RPM
Interface standard - ATA-100
Average seek time - 8.5 ms or 8.8 ms

I have another one too, it's a WD with 30 G

i'm not going to just buy shit and not know what i'm doing, that's why I'm here. to learn! also keep in mind that i'm not a computer guru and i don't need to be on lightspeed and i'm also kinda poor :)

I will check out the Athlon boards and i'm sure i'll learn more as i keep researching. i just needed somewhere to start! thanks guys!

[twelvefoot]

here's the deal with the cases and motherboard

if you have two types of cases/power supplies..

at, and atx...

at has to seperate cables going into the motherboard..
atx, is newer and only has one type of cable going into the motherboard...
atx motherboards, have a ps2 keyboard and mouse connection on them...at, have an at keyboard connector...so if you're using a at motherboard, and you're purchasing a atx motherboard you'll need to buy a new case and powersupply

here's the other deal...before the PIII, and the AMD Athelons a 250 watt power supply was all you would ever need..
but with those upgrades in cpu's and motherboards..they require more voltage...i wouldn't run an amd on anything less then a 300 watt power suppy and recommend a 350...

so if you have a 250 watt power supply you'll need to replace it...

[Paul]

If you're going to install a new OS do it after you upgrade the hardware. If you do it before you upgrade the hardware it can cause all sorts of conflicts and stuff when you suddenly pull the rug out from under the OS.

The best approach is to save all your user data onto a second drive then reformat your primary drive and re-install your OS after you have upgraded the hardware. That way you will get a nice clean hardware specific install.

I think this is particularly important if you go with Windows XP because my understanding of the Windows XP registration is that it uses some kind of hardware signature to tie your machine to the specific license serial number. If you change the hardware after registering it they may assume you are installing the same license on another PC (which of course no one ever does right ;)) and XP will not work.

[Paul]

Originally posted by twelvefoot
so if you have a 250 watt power supply you'll need to replace it...

Yes, that too... I had to replace my power supply when I upgraded. I now have a 400w ATX supply in a tower case.

[Muddy Buttslipper]

ok it's all coming back to me now. i believe my power box is 300 and i believe my motherboard is atx

big question here: i just bought that new HD this week, i partitioned it, and it only recognized 32G of it. Does this have anything to do with the motherboard? I don't want to think I got jipped :( Is it possible for my computer not to recognize that much?

[twelvefoot]

here's the skinny on cpu's

people are really loyal to the brands, either pentium or amd...
both have quality cpu's now.....amd had a bad record before their K62 series, the had a lot of over heating..but since the invention of duron, athelon, and thunderbird series..they've been a good quality...

i still only purchase pentium, which are far more expensive, but the bad luck i've had with almost EVERY amd cpu i bought that was before the K62 series left a bad taste in my mouth for AMD ...but i don't mind recommending them now...i just prefer intel....

and as for bench tests for what runs faster and what runs better...i've seen a million different tests by a million different people claiming that amd is faster then intel...and vice versa, i've seen millions saying that pentium is faster...

they're about equal in speed...

the big deal in quality when buying a motherboard and cpu...really isn't the cpu brand...it's the motherboard brand.....pentium has better motherboards then amd..and that's the plain truth...intel has been imbraced by more companies then amd, intell the recent few years, so the motherboards designed around them have been better..

if your going to buy a motherboard..i actually ONLY purchase one of three brands..they've been very reliable for me, the only brands i haven't had any trouble with...

ASUS
TYAN
and
ABIT

i prefer ABIT over all...
but tyan and asus make good quality also...

[Muddy Buttslipper]

i was gonna figure out what everything was again last night but something happened and i ended up drinking too much vino heh. but tonight i'm going to get my stats and i'll let you know what everything is.

[twelvefoot]

does it only see 32 gig in windows?...or in your cmos?
or both...

if you it only comes up with 32 gig in your cmos, there isn't anything you can do about it, and when you purchase your new motherboard..you're going to have to format it anyway...so you can repartition it then

[Paul]

The 32Gb limit is a BIOS limitation. You would need to see if there is a flash BIOS upgrade for your board which is hardly worthwhile if you are going to upgrade it.

[Muddy Buttslipper]

yeah my *cmos* (??? is that the bios screen blah?) only found 32G as well as windows. i'll just have to repartition it. i just wondered if it's possible that i was scammed or if it's the motherboard. i'm trying to find an example of how my motherboard looks, b/c now that i think about it, it's probably on at

[Charles:]

What do you use your computer for? Have you thought about simply upgrading to the highest PII processor and adding some more ram. For basic internet users on a modem a PII 450 with 256 RAM should do just fine.

Just a thought.

It seems that people want the newest and greatest when it comes to computers, but for their needs, they really don't need it. Hell, at home, I'm still on a pentium class 350 AMD processor with 128 RAM. Suits me fine for internet browsing cause that's all I do at home.

[twelvefoot]

yeah there's nothign you can do about it but flash your mother board's cmos


what a cmos is ..is a little chip on your motherboard that contains all the infromation and set up of your motherboard..
like how many serial ports you have, and what address their at
what kind of floppy drive you have, and what kidns you can put on it

flashing your bios is to erase that chip, and then replace it with newer infromation, so that the motherboard can recognize new parts..

don't flash it, unless you have to...
it's kinda of a risky operation..if it screws up..your motherbaord will be useless, and the only thing you can do to fix it, is actaully replace the cmos chip..which will cost you about the same as a new mother board
just use the drive at 32 gig, untill you buy a new motherboard..

when you replace that motherboard you're going to have to format the hard drive anyway...so you can reparition it then, to the correct size, because your new motherboard will have the ability to see the bigger hard drive..

[Muddy Buttslipper]

yeah i don't want to flash it, i had Paul (K) help me do that once and ummm i don't want to myself heh

CYH, i don't want the newest shit :). i just don't want to spend money on crap that i won't need and not get what i do need. i do alot of cd burning, graphics shit, but nothing too indepth. it's not even really a necessity that i upgrade, i just want to, projects are always fun :)

but i know my cpu is outdated.
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_1260_1262,00.html

i'm not sure if that's exactly it, it could very well be the K6-2 (what's the difference?)

(edit: just realized that link was to a "mobile")
i'm learning all sorts of useful things! thanks guys!

[twelvefoot]

K6 and K62

the big difference is 3d now!
which is basically amds equavelent to MMX , it's an extra set of instructions on the cpu mainly for video, and audio enhancements....

the other big difference, is K62 series is when amd bumped up the clock speed from 66mhz to 100mhz...

a basic description of what clock speed is...say your processor runs at 400 mhz..that means the calculations and instructions it runs ..is going at 400 mhz...
but the speed is sends it to the different devices, and through out the motherboard is slower...
that's your clock speed...
so if your clock is at 66 mhz..that means the processor is going at 400 and sending it at 66..

the faster the clock speed the faster the cpu runs...
that's the big difference in the celeron, and pentium families...
and the athelon , and duron families

the clock speed (and cache) is slower on the celerons and durons to their brothers the pentium, and athelon families...

a 400 mhz celeron, and 400 mhz pentiumIII are both running at 400 mhz...but the PIII is faster because it's clock speed is faster...

[twelvefoot]

clock speed is the same as the memory speed what determines your memorys send speed..

hence the PC100, PC133

that means PC100 memory is designed to run at a clock speed of 100mhz, and PC133 is for clocks at 133mhz


new memory, you'll find is a little bit more tricky, because they started to bump the speed of the memory itself...rather then it's transfer rate only....

[Muddy Buttslipper]

:O

heh umm i'm going to reread that about 10 times

[Muddy Buttslipper]

Athlon XP 1800 vs. Athlon XP 1500

what do they 1800 and 1500 mean?

[twelvefoot]

model numbers

the 1500... is a 1.33 gig cpu
or 1330 mhz...


the 1800 is a 1.53 gig cpu
or 1530 mhz

[Muddy Buttslipper]

ok so something like this:
http://www.partspc.com/store/product1916.html

what does the FSB stand for? is that my "clock speed"

argH!

[twelvefoot]

yup...front side bus , and clock speed are the same thing...
thats what is was called during the 286,386,486, and pentium era's....


amd started calling it front side bus ..when the athelons came out..cause they claimed to have "dual" front side bus's.....leaving your clock speed to run at 200 mhz, instead of 100 like the pentium...

it was a wonderful marketing ploy...being that only one of the two channels was used at a time leaving the other idle until it switched agian...
making it truely a 100 mhz fsb...





that's a great motherboard...buy it

[Muddy Buttslipper]

is this practically the same thing? http://www.accubyte.com/applications/search/itemdetails.asp?sku=mbc-kg718x&sc=pi

[twelvefoot]

for what you know, and are going to use it for

yes, they are practically the same thing...

[Dangus]

Personally, I'd recommend an Athlon system with at least 256 megabytes of DDR SDRAM, and at least an NVIDIA GeForce 2 GTS or better for video.

For motherboards, you have a few options, the nForce is one option, which is a motherboard made by NVIDIA, and the other best option is the KT266A, or the KT333, assuming it's out yet. I would get Asus, Soyo, or AOpen brand on it, or Abit if you want raw speed. Most Athlon boards are close to as good as any other, but make sure you read articles on http://arstechnica.com/ and http://www.anandtech.com/ to get a good feel for what is good with comparative benchmarks.

If you have a Pentium 2, you will also need a new case and power supply to upgrade in all likelihood, as Pentium 4 systems use a new power interface, and Athlons just draw a lot of juice. As for the case, the one you have is probably either too small, or it's too proprietary, assuming you have a prebuilt(aka OEM) system from a major manufacturer like Dell or Gateway, which spend more time designing cases for aerodynamics than practical application.

[HanksterZ]

Originally posted by twelvefoot
model numbers

the 1500... is a 1.33 gig cpu
or 1330 mhz...

the 1800 is a 1.53 gig cpu
or 1530 mhz

</b><font face="Comic Sans MS" color="004000" size=3>Those are more than just model numbers. It's a whole new way of thinking about processor performance from AMD. The Athlon XP 1800+ might be a 1.53 GHz processor in terms of the "old thinking," but AMD's position is that its performance basically matches that of a more conventional Pentium 4 1.8 GHz processor. However, independent 3rd party lab testing found the Athlon XP 1800+ outperforming Pentium 4 2.0 GHz processors in all catagories but a game designed the Intel processor in mind.

I don't put money into my computers for games. Heck, I'm happy using my old Commodore 128D to play Space Invaders on. Yeah, I have newer games, but that's not my thing. I use my new computers for work, and more specifically creative work. With that in mind, the Athlon XP processor's superior multi-tasking, work per clock cycle (IPC), non-application-freeze, is what suits me.

Check http://athlonxp.amd.com/ and, more specifically, http://athlonxp.amd.com/technicalInformation/understandingPerformance.jsp for detailed AMD explanation on processor performance.

I plan to rebuild my custom Pentium III 800 MHz "video production" computer with a new board, Athlon XP 2200+ processor, 1 gig of DDR RAM and at least an IBM 120 GB 7200 RPM Hard Drive, placing the PIII/board/HD into a cheaper case while keeping the ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon video capture card on my "video" computer along with its 24x10x40 CDRW and 16x DVD (fast enough for me) until I get a DVDRW in early 2003.</font>

[twelvefoot]

<b>Those are more than just model numbers. It's a whole new way of thinking about processor performance from AMD. The Athlon XP 1800+ might be a 1.53 GHz processor in terms of the "old thinking," but AMD's position is that its performance basically matches that of a more conventional Pentium 4 1.8 GHz processor. However, independent 3rd party lab testing found the Athlon XP 1900+ outperforming Pentium 4 2.0 GHz processors in all catagories but a game designed the Intel processor in mind. </b>


spedina...remeber when i mentioned that people are loyal to one brand only?...this is what i was talkign about...and also note how they always back something up with 3rd party testing, although i've seen the same results with the pentium 4 in the lead..


hankwhatever....she just wanted to know what it was..didn't need an explanation that sounds like an add for amd...

[devnull]

let's revisit paul's advice: don't build it yourself!

if you're afraid to flash the bios, then there's a lot more you could possibly mess up/short out/destroy.

if you've watched other people build systems, or have been guided through it by someone else, then i'd say "go for it." but unless you're rich, there's a lot of money you could be pissing down the drain if you should happen to get something wrong.

[twelvefoot]

read the whole thread..

she said she's built it before..

she just looking for advice, on what type she should buy...


and she also said she wasn't going to flash it

[Muddy Buttslipper]

doh! am i starting something that might turn into a much-desired flame war??? sweet!

well i'm not going to pay someone to do it for me. i just want to know what to buy, i have guru's here that can help me assemble it. i'm just trying to get refamiliarized with what's good and what's not, jeez. i'm not so daft that i'll start plugging things in, turn them on, unplug them and tap them with a screwdriver a few times cause they don't work.

i don't what to flash a bios b/c i don't need to. i want a new motherboard. i want to know what kind to buy. thanks paul and everyone for helping me learn what i want to get.

[twelvefoot]

computer nerds are worse then tori fans
when it comes to loyality....

it's disgusting to watch to nerds discuss the benefits of linux over windows...i've seen people get extremely upset over someone elses likes and dislikes...

[HanksterZ]

Originally posted by twelvefoot
spedina...remeber when i mentioned that people are loyal to one brand only?...this is what i was talkign about...and also note how they always back something up with 3rd party testing, although i've seen the same results with the pentium 4 in the lead..

hankwhatever....she just wanted to know what it was..didn't need an explanation that sounds like an add for amd...

</b><font face="Comic Sans MS" color="004000" size=3>I've been a Pentium guy basically until now. That superior IPC (work per clock cycle) makes all the difference in better defining why those are not just "model numbers" but in all reality a new way of more critically evaluating processor performance.

As for independent lab testing, I am relying more on my personal satisfaction and lack of application freeze with my current pre-built Athlon XP 1800+ computer.

AMD advertising is not my intention here as that is not my job. I'm just a user with specific needs. If Intel comes out with a better processor, I'll be just as open to it as I was to trying out the Athlon (application multi-tasking freezes like Pentium) and now the superior Athlon XP.</font>

[twelvefoot]

whatever you wanna say about it..

it's still just a model number....

[HanksterZ]

Originally posted by twelvefoot
computer nerds are worse then tori fans
when it comes to loyality....

</b><font face="Comic Sans MS" color="004000" size=3>Ironically, I've read your admitted "bad taste" for AMD. I don't think I've ever developed that towards Intel, and in fact still considered Intel superior until the introduction of the Athlon XP.

Those "model numbers" are actually reliable performance indicators.</font>

[twelvefoot]

ironically you didn't read the entire post

where i said that i didn't have a problem with amd cpu's after the K62 era, and that i recommend people to purchase the newer processors..
and that i just prefer intel over amd.....

the bad taste comment was around the 386,486,586, and K6 processors...

[Muddy Buttslipper]

oh my god i'm laughing, i think i'll just go buy a compaq

[twelvefoot]

if you buy a compaq..i will never help you with any computer question EVER...

[twelvefoot]

*lmao*..i missed the <b>Those "model numbers" are actually reliable performance indicators.</b> bit

it's a fuckin part number...that's all...i don't care what model it stands for ..or "reliable performance" it may indicate.....it's a part number...it says what processor they are refering to...

[Muddy Buttslipper]

but compaq outperformed my gerbil Hewlett when I tested to see which one I could toss around my room at 1.88 mph, and, so ever Hewlett wasn't up to par to the 5500000 GHz that I pumped into the Compaq when I stuck it in my wall outlet. Hewlett died and the Compaq was still going strong.

[HanksterZ]

Originally posted by twelvefoot
*lmao*..i missed the <b>Those "model numbers" are actually reliable performance indicators.</b> bit

it's a fuckin part number...that's all...i don't care what it stands model for ..or "reliable performance" it may indicate.....it's a part number...it says what processor they are refering to...

</b><font face="Comic Sans MS" color="004000" size=3>Yes, I read your entire post, 12ft. But your bias shows with remarks like the above quoted.

Yes, it is a part number, but it is not without careful thought given to actual performance. It is a new way of thinking which takes into account a lot more when evaluating processor performance. AMD boldly claims that their 1.53 GHz Athlon XP 1800+ is at least comparable to a Pentium 4 1.8 GHz processor, and Intel has found it difficult to prove otherwise, outside of a slight edge with a game named Quake (as memory serves me).</font>

[Muddy Buttslipper]

http://www.emachines.com/images/index_main.jpg

[twelvefoot]

you don't get it ..do you...i hate daft people like you...i bet if you saw a product you hated..that had a "new and improved" sticker on it...you'd purchase it believing it...

it's a fucking model number...
model numbers desribe what part is specifically being mentioned....models vary on many things, like quality...and preformance over other models..
hence it's a model number



and did you fucking memorize the goddamn amd brochure?


and that comment shows nothing of my supposive "biased" attitude..that shows that i think you're an idiot because you believe that crap about how it's a "new way of thinking"...it's a new marketing ploy to get stupid fucks like you to purchase something...it's not anything but a model number...

i don't get how i'm biased when i said that the amd cpu's are fine processors and that people should purchase them...even though i prefer intel...
i even said that all the benchmarks i've seen ...have gone both ways ..some for intel some for amd...and that they are both quality...


let me show you an example of a biased comment

"Yes, it is a part number, but it is not without careful thought given to actual performance. It is a new way of thinking which takes into account a lot more when evaluating processor performance. AMD boldly claims that their 1.53 GHz Athlon XP 1800+ is at least comparable to a Pentium 4 1.8 GHz processor, and Intel has found it difficult to prove otherwise, outside of a game named Quake (as memory serves me)"


your trying to explain how it's "more" then a part number, then suddenly you go into how the slower amd processor outruns the intel, and how intel can't even prove it otherwise...

geee...i wonder what model you like

[twelvefoot]

actually ..emachines arn't that bad...

i kinda like them..i wouldn't own one, but i like them

[Muddy Buttslipper]

i remember when i was getting my ethernet hooked up at school, the IT guys were throwing shit b/c there were so many emachines and they couldn't get them to run on their network or something hehe

[twelvefoot]

anyway....hank you can contuine to post qoutes off the amd page, along with links to the articles they wrote up about their cpu's....

and i'll just go on STATING things, i know from actual experience in pc repair, sales, and system builds...

[Muddy Buttslipper]

well, even though the first thing i stated was that i didn't want to pest you, hehe thanks for helping! i will probably buy something on the next paycheck next week.....i'm gonna get my specifics right first, hopefully i won't drink too much tonight so i can do that, but the parents are taking me out to mexican food so that means margaritas and coronas woo!

[twelvefoot]

Originally posted by spedina
i remember when i was getting my ethernet hooked up at school, the IT guys were throwing shit b/c there were so many emachines and they couldn't get them to run on their network or something hehe

i dunno why, they use the same parts and models everyone else does..same software too...

[twelvefoot]

i'm not arguing over who makes the better cpu...i don't give a shit who makes it..

hank just seems to think that i have a "biased" opinion, because he can't do anything but qoute the fucking amd site, with the marketing shit he seemed to enjoy by the shovel full

[HanksterZ]

Originally posted by twelvefoot
i hate daft people like you

</b><font face="Comic Sans MS" color="0060C0" size=3>Thank you, 12ft. ;) Fact remains, I only replied to your response of people sticking to "brand loyalty," I've owned an Athlon XP 1800+ since the beginning of the year, and I used to feel Intel made the better cpu.

I only quoted you, not AMD. I expressed myself.

<font color="004000">Spedina, that's a nice new look for eMachines. Below is one of the cases I built one of my PCs in.</font>

<center><img src="http://colorcases.com/cases/images/subpics/0303f.gif" alt="This pic brought to you by The Letter Z"></font>

[twelvefoot]

like i said..you can contuine to qoute, and i'll contiune to STATE things that i know from experience rather then things i read off a sight and reworded...

[HanksterZ]

Originally posted by twelvefoot
like i said..you can contuine to qoute, and i'll contiune to STATE things that i know from experience rather then things i read off a sight and reworded...

</b><font face="Comic Sans MS" color="0060C0" size=3>12ft, thanks for making me smile so much. Your need to argue is very entertaining. But I really have a lot I am doing today. One final time, pal, I've only quoted <u>you</u> and I've "reworded" no one when I replied to your comments. I've also been repairing and building computers for years now as well. Big deal, we both have experience. I remember the inferior-to-Intel K62 from AMD, I build 2 such systems while still prefering my PIII 600. That's history, not a "bad taste" for me.

The fact that the Athlon XP processor outperforms Intel with 9 operations per clock cycle to the P4's 6 is not something I learned from the AMD "sight" which I linked only for the sake of quick convenience.

I know the Athlon XP is superior to the Pentium 4 when it comes to work multi-tasking from experience, not "brand loyalty" or any other attribute you seek to give it. Okay? Can you accept that? I'm speaking for myself, from experience only.

Have a nice day ;)</font>

[Charles:]

Todays word:

DAFT - Adj: 1. mad, crazy 2. foolish, stupid

[Dangus]

The performance indicators have less to do with AMD being stupid than 99% of the users out there being stupid. If AMD has smaller numbers on their parts, their sales are going to suffer. It was a necessary decision. I don't like it, most AMD people I know don't like it, but it's a fact of life and it makes sense, even if it sucks. The Athlon is a great chip, and without delving too deply into architecture here, it's got a much lower latency pipeline AND does more work per clock than the P4. The only reason the P4 even comes close to it in performance terms is A) sheer clockspeed(the chip is designed to produce big numbers for marketting), and B) it has a feature that allows it to bypass instructions identical to one's it's already done, which saves cycles. In either chip, a prediction error can send the whole pipeline into chaos, but with the P4's 21 stage pipeline, this can cause immense amounts of instructions to be lost, whereas the Athlon (12 or 14 stages, I forget honestly) both can handle this with less loss and can restart the process much more quickly than the P4 can. Both on this one issue are totally inferior to the Motorola G4, but that is not to say the G4 is better than either, even if it is a more elegant CPU design.

The Athlon is a big hairy beast of a CPU and with the DDR 333 setups we are starting to see now, and the upcoming VIA and NVIDIA offerings, the P4 has no real edge overall, except having an "Intel Inside" logo on the box. The RDRAM has enormous latency, and the large use of this in the P4 platform has lead to some very high end systems that run Quake 3 very fast but take 5 times longer to open a windows program than their Athlon counterpart. Latency is a bitch like that. Get a lot in the pipe and keep it running smoothly, no problem, but change what's being done frequently and the P4+RDRAM combo chokes badly.

[RonnieMcCarthy]

I have to agree with the majority recommendation here for the Athlon XP processor over the Pentium 4. There is more involved than just saving a little money.

Late last year, when the computer magazines started talking about how AMD was going to gamble and break away from identifying their processors with just MHz/GHz speed, I was skeptical about that as a marketing ploy.

Then the new Athlon XP processors began winning Best CPU awards and PC Magazine gave an Athlon XP 1800-equipped computer "Product Of The Year" Award. I remembered AMD was the first with a 1 GHz processor and realized they didn't need a marketing ploy so I looked into their new cpu more.

Its true their "model numbers" are not just that. Their new cpu architecture performance can not just be measured by GHz, so the "model numbers" do represent a new way of stating performance. It is different from what we have been used to, but it is legitimate.

[RonnieMcCarthy]

I'd recommend the ASUS A7V333 motherboard to go with an Athlon XP processor. It has DDR 333 support with high bandwidth up to 2.7GB for enchanced performance. It also comes with onboard high-quality 6 channel audio so you don't have to buy a premium sound card. Check it out.

[devnull]

all you athlon fans are SO last spring.

:D

[CornflakErotica]

Originally posted by redstamen
all you athlon fans are SO last spring.

:D

Is there something new? I was just told today at a computer store that the athlon xp 2200 is the best.

[Dangus]

The price performance ratio certainly does not favor even the very fastest P4, which, at times, does outpace the Athlon in some benchmarks(mostly Quake).

I would ditch AMD in a heartbeat if something better comes along, but right now I don't believe it has. The only compelling reason to get a P4 is if you are in a position where you must have a chip that runs cooler than what the Athlon does, but in that case you should just get the VIA/Cyrix C4, which runs so cool even the desktop version uses less power than either the mobile Athlon or mobile P4.

[Paul]

I'd just like to restate my earlier post with regard to cooling and power.

If you get an Athlon XP CPU you MUST, MUST, MUST get a good cooling fan and thermal paste to seat it with. As Dangus said above, the Athlon chips run much hotter than the P4. I have a big solid brass finned bolt mounted heatsink and fan on my CPU and it still runs at 45-50 degrees celsius when it's left running 24x7.

And power supply is also very important as stated earlier. At least 300w, 350 ideal 400 even better. The Athlon CPUs are very sensitive to voltage fluctuations. I had serious reliability problems with an older I-Will board and 300w power supply. The voltages were not consistent enough for an Athlon XP and it froze randomly. I had to replace the board and the power supply.

Lack of good cooling or clean power with these newer CPUs is the root cause of unreliability leading to random crashes and lock ups.

And I have to lend my support to Hank's and Dangus' argument that the AMD "model number" is a new method of rating performance over the usual method of simply stating the clock speed of the CPU as Intel do.

[devnull]

fyi, i will probably buy an athlon when i finally suck it up and buy. but only because they are so much more affordable, not because they're any "better" than pentium 4's with rdram.

the cooling issue cannot be emphasized enough. those suckers run sooooo hot. if the seal between the processor and the heat sink isn't PERFECT, look forward to a smoking box. :q

fyi, i love sharkyextreme.com

here are two good reviews of both the latest from intel and athlon. read the june and may ireviews.
http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/cpu/index.php

there's more elsewhere on the comparisons between these two processors. i know i read something on tomshardware.com a little while ago, but i can't dig it up now (i'm "working" lol)

redstamen

[AsslessFace]

Originally posted by HanksterZ
</b><font face="Comic Sans MS" color="004000" size=3>I plan to rebuild my custom Pentium III 800 MHz "video production" computer with a new board, Athlon XP 2200+ processor, 1 gig of DDR RAM and at least an IBM 120 GB 7200 RPM Hard Drive, placing the PIII/board/HD into a cheaper case while keeping the ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon video capture card on my "video" computer along with its 24x10x40 CDRW and 16x DVD (fast enough for me) until I get a DVDRW in early 2003.</font>

You might just want to wait for the release of the new AMD 8th generation processors, the Opteron, which will include their new SledgeHammer and ClawHammer DP processors.

From what I've heard, this new processor will be the world’s very first x86-64 CPU. The architecture will allow seamless migration from 32-bit applications to 64-bit applications. It also will have other features such as an integrated memory controller.

It's supposed to be out in about half a year. I think it's worth the wait, especially if you already have an Athlon XP 1800+ computer.

[Dangus]

The downside is that when they are going to be released they will be worked in above the existing line of x86 32bit processors, which will then be phased out, so the cost of the Hammer and it's friends will be pretty high out the door, and the boards for it will probably be expensive as well. I would not be suprised if they have to be 6 layer PCBs on the boards just to deal with the increase in trace requirements for the doubled pipelines.

[AsslessFace]

Originally posted by Dangus
The downside is that when they are going to be released they will be worked in above the existing line of x86 32bit processors, which will then be phased out, so the cost of the Hammer and it's friends will be pretty high out the door, and the boards for it will probably be expensive as well. I would not be suprised if they have to be 6 layer PCBs on the boards just to deal with the increase in trace requirements for the doubled pipelines.

We'll know soon enough. Should be interesting.

[Muddy Buttslipper]

so i have checked out my computer a little bit more. i wish i had brought my motherboard manual home damnit! here's what i could figure out so far.

my power box says "Achieve 300" on it. 110/220 V does that mean anything? There was a listing on it that went from 150-300 V on it.

the fan says AMD K6, 450 Mhz, 2.4V/3.3V on it. I'm assuming the CPU was under that and I couldn't read it.

as for the actual board........it has 2 IDE slots, one for the floppy, and an AGP one (I think anyways)

then there's 4 PCI slots and 3 ISA ones. gotta change that for real!

i didn't figure out what my memory was

[Muddy Buttslipper]

anyways, i'm about to buy one, it's payday! but noone ever replied to me about the power box. do i have a 300 or do i need to get another?

[Muddy Buttslipper]

Abit KG7 with AMD Athlon XP 1800+ (1.53Ghz) 266FSB CPU & Fan
KG7@1800

http://www.partspc.com/images/MB/abit/kg7.jpg
$157.82
CPU
Support AMD Athlon/Duron 700MHz ~ 1.33GHz or future Socket A Processors based on 200/266 MHz (100MHz/133MHz Double Data Rate)
Chipset
AMD761/VIA 686B

Memory
Four 184-pin DIMM sockets support up to 4 GB PC1600 / PC2100 Registred DDR SDRAM or
2 GB PC1600 / PC2100 Unregistered DDR SDRAM module
BIOS
SoftMenu™III Technology to set CPU parameters

Functions
Four channels of Bus Master IDE Ports supporting up to 4 Ultra DMA 33/66/100.
Miscellaneous
1 AGP slot, 6 PCI slots.

[Muddy Buttslipper]

or this
http://www.allstarcomponents.com/media/ak32l.jpg
Combo AMD - Shuttle AK32L - Basic Level
Package

Motherboard Features:


(FEDEX GROUND SHIPPING UNDER $1 - UPGRADED SHIPPING OPTIONS AT A REASONABLE COST)
OEM Package Motherboard
KT266 Chipset Motherboard
AGP 4x / 2x
2 168 Pin (PC133) & 2 184 Pin (PC2100 DDR)
1GB Max PC133 / 1GB Max PC2100 DDR
5 PCI Slots
0 ISA Slot
4 ATA Drives Max
UDMA 66/100
2 Rear USB & 2 USB Header
AC97 Audio
Other Ports:
(PS2 Mouse & Keyboard, Speaker & Mic, Joystick, , 1 Parrallel, 1 Serial Port)
Includes Basic Fan Heatsink & 30 Day CPU Warranty (No Shim, No Case Fan & No Thermal Grease)

Combo - Athlon XP 1900 & Shuttle AK32L - Basic Package $157.00

[Muddy Buttslipper]

ok well i bought memory, a motherboard, and a new power box. werd

[Dangus]

I would have replied to this, but I had a family crisis going on. Sorry. Hope it works out for ya.

[Muddy Buttslipper]

so umm YEAH

my weekend sucked. i had too many problems with this new board. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr well not too many. so far i can't get past this one! it beeps at me. the monitor won't come on

jesus h christmas.

[Paul]

Disconnect everything from the board except the power connector, video card, keyboard and the power switch wire. Take all the other connectors off and remove all the other cards.

What happens then?

*edit*

Can you hear the disks power up?

One beep should be normal. Three beeps normally indicates a video failure.

Do you have an AGP video card or PCI?

[Muddy Buttslipper]

i'm at work right now.

but i did that, it still beeps. question. the power box has a switch on the back for 115 and 230. what does that mean/matter?

maybe my video card is old? i have to get an adapter tonight so i can plug it into the com port.

[Paul]

Originally posted by spedina
i'm at work right now.

but i did that, it still beeps. question. the power box has a switch on the back for 115 and 230. what does that mean/matter?

maybe my video card is old? i have to get an adapter tonight so i can plug it into the com port.

Sorry, I edited my first post... re-read.

What adapter do you need for a video card? VGA video sockets are the same for all recent boards.

The power switch is for the source voltage. You should have it set it to 115 for US voltage I think. We use 230-250 volts over here.

[Muddy Buttslipper]

as far as i know, the power works fine. i can open my cdroms and the fans all start up. however, when i do switch the voltages, the beeping stops

btw, this is a continuous beeping.....i found beep codes for my board but they just say "1 beep means this....10 beeps" and nothing about a continuing one.

i wasn't going to buy an adapter for my video card, just a convertor thingy so i can try plugging my monitor into the com1 port, i can do that right? or do i HAVE to have a video card? hrm well the one i have uh...it's a PCI card.

[Paul]

You have to have a video card installed. You can't plug a monitor into COM1.

Probably not a good plan to switch the voltage selector. The reason it probably stops is because you're not getting enough power through the PSU.

Have you disconnected all the front panel wires except the power switch? That includes the speaker connector.

All you should have connected to the board is the two white power connectors, the keyboard, one wire from the front panel to the power on connectors and your video card with monitor. No disk drives connected at all. Just the barest minimum required to get the thing to the BIOS setup.

[Muddy Buttslipper]

ok. i really think i tried all that. grrr.........so there should be no reason for my video card to not work?

"two white power connectors" two?

[Paul]

There is probably only one. Sometimes there are two parts on some power supplies.

.

[Muddy Buttslipper]

is it possible my video card is outdated or something? i still can't get an answer to this, do they make certain types of cards, so that i can play it in my old system but not this one????

[Paul]

If you have a PCI VGA video card that worked in your old PC there should be no problem using it. Any PCI video card should at least show you the POST display and the BIOS setup.

If you have a continuous beep when you start up with nothing bu the video card and power switch connected you must have some problem with the board installation.

Have you tried disassembling the whole thing and rebuilding? At this stage try anything.

[Muddy Buttslipper]

yeah i did that yesterday. i'll try again today.
and you don't mean stripping everything, including the CPU right?

[Muddy Buttslipper]

damnity damn. yeah my monitor has the 15 pins and the video card has the connector

i've read the manual several times, i have no problems understanding what goes where now. i just don't have "onboard graphics" i guess. grrrrrrrrr i don't think i did anything to mess it up. i mean shit! it's not that hard!

[Muddy Buttslipper]

ok the CPU fan runs properly, and there was nothing about jumpers for the CPU in my book. i checked out the RAM before i bought it and there shouldn't be any problem there. as for the video card, i even tried putting it in different slots. grrrrr i'm gonna go home and kiss and talk sweet to it, then we'll see.

[Muddy Buttslipper]

ok! no more beeping! that's good

but i still can't get my monitor to work damnit! i swear this video card is fucked or something. it has to be!

[User Unfriendly]

<font face="Lucida sans Unicode" color="blue" size="4">I believe a long continuous beep indicates a bad proc..

Also make sure you put all the plastic risers under the motherboard so there's no connection to the case.

Make sure the video card is properly seated.

Try booting with <b>just</b> the power supply, the proc, 1 DIMM and the vidcard installed, if the computer "POSTs" then connect hard drives one by one, it could be your power supply doesn't have enough "juice" for all your hardware. For an Athlon I'd recommend at least a 350W power supply

As far as mobos go.. I'm partial to Soyo boards myself... particularly the DRAGON line :)

[Muddy Buttslipper]

well, i'm supposed to be hearing 1 beep at startup, i'm not even hearing that. this bitch is getting returned

[Paul]

You sure you have the speaker plug connected the right way round?

Did you try a newer AGP video card as suggested?

[Muddy Buttslipper]

godamn this is pissing me off!

no i haven't gotten the agp card, but if my current one works in my old computer, shouldn't it work in the new one? i swear.................

"a bad proc.. " what is that?

and how do i know if i've "fried" the board or something, will the fans stop working and all the drives too?

[Paul]

Bad proc. = bad processor... bad CPU...

Processors are very delicate things and can be easily damaged if you don't take the right anti-static precautions before handling them.

Do you know what make and model of video card you have?

[Muddy Buttslipper]

Originally posted by Paul
Do you know what make and model of video card you have?

no.....unfortunately. i think the only thing i could notice on it was Tekron. I'm sure that helps.

well *if* i have a bad CPU, i'm not screwed, i've got a 1 year warranty on it. i think what i'll do is just go ahead and get an AGP card today at lunch, and if that doesn't work then atleast i know it's not that. shit, how much is one of those going to cost me?

[Muddy Buttslipper]

well, i'm going to go buy one in 15 mins! someone give me some advice!! ha!

[Paul]

Whatever the cheapest AGP card you can find should do the job.

[Muddy Buttslipper]

mmkay i just spent $40 on the cheapest one they had! i swear, this better help something! hehe