POLITICAL ACTION NEEDED!

[DETERGENT]

Every Hour
someone commits a hate crime.



Every Day
eight blacks, three whites, three gays, three Jews and one Latino become hate crime victims.



Every Week
a cross is burned.



Hate in America is a dreadful, daily constant. The dragging death of a black man in Jasper, Texas; the crucifixion of a gay man in Laramie, Wyoming; and the murder of 168 citizens in Oklahoma City are not "isolated incidents." They are eruptions of a nation’s intolerance.
Bias is a human condition, and American history is rife with prejudice against groups and individuals because of their race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or other differences. The 20th Century saw major progress in outlawing discrimination, and most Americans today support integrated schools and neighborhoods. But stereotypes and unequal treatment persist, an atmosphere often exploited by hate groups.
When bias motivates an unlawful act, it is considered a hate crime. Race and religion inspire most hate crimes, but hate today wears many faces.
Forty percent of bias crimes target blacks and 13 percent are anti-white, but the greatest growth in hate crimes in recent years is against Asians and homosexuals, according to FBI statistics. Once considered a Southern phenomenon, today seven out of eight hate crimes take place in the North and West. In the late 1990s there were more public Ku Klux Klan rallies, complete with white sheets, in Pennsylvania than in Alabama. States with large immigrant populations, such as California, find the "hate line" between people of color. Spread on the Internet and accessible by personal computers, hate clearly knows no geographic bounds.



The Good News Is …
All over the country people are fighting hate. Standing up to hate mongers. Promoting tolerance and inclusion. More often than not, when hate flares up, good erupts, too.
This guide sets out 10 principles for fighting hate along with a collection of inspiring stories of people who acted, often alone at first, to push hate out of their communities. Their efforts usually made smaller headlines than the acts of the haters, but they made a difference. Even in the wake of some of the most horrific hate crimes of the last century, seeds of promise sprouted.
Whether you need a crash course to deal with an upcoming Ku Klux Klan rally, a primer on the media or a long-range plan to promote tolerance in your community, you will find practical advice, good examples and additional sources in this guide. The steps outlined here have been tested in scores of communities across the U.S. by a wide range of human rights, religious and civic organizations. Our experience shows that one person, acting from conscience and love, can neutralize bigotry. A group of people can create a moral barrier to hate

from the site
http://www.splcenter.com/cgi-bin/goframe.pl?dirname=/intelligenceproject&pagename=twtfh-index.html

I encourage everyone to check out the site and read the article on the ten things to stop hate.

[jcldragon]

<a href="http://home.beseen.com/internet/jclanim1/jcldexp.gif" target="blank"><img src="http://home.beseen.com/belief/jcldragon/myicons/jcldexp.gif" align="left"></a>This appears to be our topic for activism and similar announcements. Here is a link to a petition for freedom of religion in Tibet.

http://www.interfaithcall.com/

BTW, the page loads very slowly. Please be patient.

[jcldragon]

This was forwarded to me by a very dear friend in Texas. I also have heard of these atrocities against women and I hear about them from Christian missionaries serving around the world. It would be my hope that a campaign like this will help -- something MUST!!! We can't ignore the treatment women are receiving around the world in the name of religion or anything else. Please consider signing this petition. *Maybe* it will do some good. We can only hope.
Thanks,
Frank

P.S. Be sure to go all the way to the bottom to read the instructions.
Thanks so much.

Dear Friends,

After just returning from a National Avon Representative convention in Las Vegas where nearly 15,000 Avon associates shared the earning opportunity for women, I felt that this was something I needed to share with you.

It will take a few minutes of your time, but please read it. I can't believe what still goes on in this world. Be happy that we are honored with certain birthrights and have the freedom to pursue our dreams and goals.

This is something that we as human beings need to support - I don't know if this is going to help but take the time out of your life to do your part.

Madhu, the government of Afghanistan, is waging a war upon women. Since the Taliban took power in 1996, women have had to wear burqua and have been beaten and stoned in public for not having the proper attire, even if this means simply not having the mesh covering in front of their eyes. One woman was beaten to death by an angry mob of fundamentalists for accidentally exposing her arm while she was driving. Another was stoned to death for trying to leave the country with a man that was not a relative. Women are not allowed to work or even go out in public without a male relative; professional women such as professors, translators, doctors, lawyers, artists and writers have been forced from their jobs and stuffed into their homes.

Homes where a woman is present must have their windows painted so that she can never be seen by outsiders. They must wear silent shoes so that they are never heard. Women live in fear of their lives for the slightest misbehavior. Because they cannot work, those without male relatives or husbands are either starving to death or begging on the street, even if they hold Ph.D.s. Depression is becoming so widespread that it has reached emergency levels. There is no way in such an extreme Islamic society to know the suicide rate with certainty, but relief workers are estimating that the suicide rate among women, who cannot find proper medication and treatment for severe depression and would rather take their lives than live in such conditions, has increased significantly. There are almost no medical facilities available for women. At one of the rare hospitals for women, a reporter found still, nearly lifeless bodies lying motionless on top of beds, wrapped in their burqua, unwilling to speak, eat, or do anything, but slowly wasting away. Others have gone mad and were seen crouched in corners, perpetually rocking or crying, most of them in fear. One doctor is considering, when what little medication that is left finally runs out, leaving these women in front of the president's residence.

"Human Rights" has become a meaningless statement. Husbands have the power of life and death over their women relatives, especially their wives, but an angry mob has just as much right to stone or beat a woman, often to death, for exposing an inch of flesh or offending them in the slightest way.

Women enjoyed relative freedom, to work, dress generally as they wanted, and drive and appear in public alone until only 1996. The rapidity of the transition is a main reason for the depression and suicide; women who were once educators or doctors or simply used to basic human freedoms are now severely restricted and treated as subhuman in the name of right-wing fundamentalist Islam. It is not their tradition or 'culture,' but it is alien to them, and it is extreme even for those cultures where fundamentalism is he rule. Everyone has a right to a tolerable human existence, even if they are women in a Muslim country.

If we can threaten military force in Kosovo in the name of human rights for the sake of ethnic Albanians, citizens of the world can certainly express peaceful outrage at the oppression, murder and injustice committed against women by the Taliban.


STATEMENT:

In signing this, we agree that the current treatment of women in Afghanistan is completely UNACCEPTABLE and deserves action by the United Nations and that the current situation overseas will not be tolerated. Women's Rights is not a small issue anywhere, and it is UNACCEPTABLE for women in 2000 to be treated as subhuman and so much as property. Equality and human decency is a RIGHT not a freedom, whether one lives in Afghanistan or elsewhere.

1) Suzanne Dathe, Grenoble, France
2) Laurence COMPARAT, Grenoble, France
3) Philippe MOTTE, Grenoble, France
4) Jok FERRAND, Mont St Martin, France
5) Emmanuelle PIGNOL, St Martin d'Heres, FRANCE
6) Marie GAUTHIER, Grenoble, FRANCE
7) Laurent VESCALO, Grenoble,FRANCE
8) Mathieu MOY, St Egreve, FRANCE
9) Bernard BLANCHET, Mont St Martin, FRANCE
10) Tassadite FAVRIE, Grenoble, FRANCE
11) Loic GODARD, St Ismier, FRANCE
12) Benedicte PASCAL, Grenoble, FRANCE
13) Khedaidja BENATIA, Grenoble, FRANCE
14) Marie-Therese LLORET, Grenoble,FRANCE
15) Benoit THEAU, Poitiers, FRANCE
16) Bruno CONSTANTIN, Poitiers, FRANCE
17) Christian COGNARD, Poitiers, FRANCE
18) Robert GARDETTE, Paris, FRANCE
19) Claude CHEVILLARD, Montpellier, FRANCE
20) gilles FREISS, Montpellier, FRANCE
21) Patrick AUGEREAU, Montpellier, FRANCE.
22) Jean IMBERT, Marseille, FRANCE
23) Jean-Claude MURAT, Toulouse, France
24) Anna BASSOLS, Barcelona, Spain
25) Mireia DUNACH, Barcelona, Spain
26) Michel VILLAZ, Grenoble, France
27) Pages Frederique, Dijon, France
28) Rodolphe FISCHMEISTER, Chatenay-Malabry, France
29) Francois BOUTEAU, Paris, France
30) Patrick PETER, Paris, France
31) Lorenza RADICI, Paris, France
32) Monika Siegenthaler, Bern, Switzerland
33) Mark Philp, Glasgow, Scotland
34) Tomas Andersson, Stockholm, Sweden
35) Jonas Eriksson, Stockholm, Sweden
36) Karin Eriksson, Stockholm, Sweden
37) Ake Ljung, Stockholm, Sweden
38) Carina Sedlmayer, Stockholm, Sweden
39) Rebecca Uddman, Stockholm, Sweden
40) Lena Skog, Stockholm, Sweden
41) Micael Folke, Stockholm, Sweden
42) Britt-Marie Folke, Stockholm, Sweden
43) Birgitta Schuberth, Stockholm, Sweden
44) Lena Dahl, Stockholm, Sweden
45) Ebba Karlsson, Stockholm, Sweden
46) Jessica Carlsson, Vaxjo, Sweden
47) Sara Blomquist, Vaxjo, Sweden
48) Magdalena Fosseus, Vaxjo, Sweden
49) Charlotta Langner, Goteborg, Sweden
50) Andrea Egedal, Goteborg, Sweden
51) Lena Persson, Stockholm, Sweden
52) Magnus Linder, Umea ,Sweden
53) Petra Olofsson, Umea, Sweden
54) Caroline Evenbom, Vaxjo, Sweden
55) Asa Pettersson, Grimsas, Sweden
56) Jessica Bjork, Grimsas, Sweden
57) Linda Ahlbom Goteborg, Sweden
58) Jenny Forsman, Boras, Sweden
59) Nina Gunnarson, Kinna, Sweden
60) Andrew Harrison, New Zealand
61) Bryre Murphy, New Zealand
62) Claire Lugton, New Zealand
63) Sarah Thornton, New Zealand
64) Rachel Eade, New Zealand
65) Magnus Hjert, London, UK
67) Madeleine Stamvik, Hurley, UK
68) Susanne Nowlan, Vermont, USA
69) Lotta Svenby, Malmoe, Sweden
71) Anders Kullman, Stockholm, Sweden
72) Rebecka Swane, Stockholm,Sweden
73) Jens Venge, Stockholm, Sweden
74) Catharina Ekdahl, Stockholm, Sweden
75) Nina Fylkegard, Stockholm, Sweden
76) Therese Stedman, Malmoe, Sweden
77) Jannica Lund, Stockholm, Sweden
78) Douglas Bratt
79) Mats Lofstrom, Stockholm, Sweden
80) Li Lindstrom, Sweden
81) Ursula Mueller, Sweden
82) Marianne Komstadius, Stockholm, Sweden
83) Peter Thyselius, Stockholm, Sweden
84) Gonzalo Oviedo, Quito, Ecuador
85) Amalia Romeo, Gland, Switzerland
86) Margarita Restrepo, Gland, Switzerland
87) Eliane Ruster, Crans p.C., Switzerland
88) Jennifer Bischoff-Elder, Hong Kong
89)Azita Lashgari, Beirut, Lebanon
90)Khashayar Ostovany, New York, USA
91)Lisa L Miller, Reno NV
92)Danielle Avazian, Los Angeles, CA
93) Sara Risher, Los Angeles, Ca.
94) Melanie London, New York, NY
95) Susan Brownstein , Los Angeles, CA
96) Steven Raspa, San Francisco, CA
97) Margot Duane, Ross, CA
98) Natasha Darnall, Los Angeles, CA
99) Candace Brower, Evanston, IL
100) James Kjelland, Evanston, IL
101) Michael Jampole, Beach Park, IL, USA
102) Diane Willis, Wilmette, IL, USA
103) Sharri Russell, Roanoke, VA, USA
104) Faye Cooley, Roanoke, VA, USA
105) Celeste Thompson, Round Rock, TX, USA
106) Sherry Stang, Pflugerville, TX, USA
107) Amy J. Singer, Pflugerville, TX USA
108) Milissa Bowen, Austin, TX USA
109) Michelle Jozwiak, Brenham, TX USA
110) Mary Orsted, College Station, TX USA
111) Janet Gardner, Dallas, TX USA
112) Marilyn Hollingsworth, Dallas, TX USA
113) Nancy Shamblin, Garland. TX USA
114) K. M. Mullen, Houston, TX - USA
115) Noreen Tolman, Houston, Texas - USA
116) Judy Bechtel, Merced, CA - USA
117) Delores Iliff, FL, USA
118) Nicole Propper, FL, USA
119) Bonnie LaChance, FL, USA
120) JoAnn Blades, FL, USA
121) Pam Blades, FL, USA122)
122) Louise Campbell, FL, USA
123) Marcy DeSanto, FL, USA
124) Donald Blades, FL,USA
125) Tom LaChance, FL, USA
126) Craig Huff, GA, USA
127) Karen Huff, FL, USA
128) Heather Huff, GA, USA
129) Franki Silcox GA, USA
130) Karin Horn, TX, USA
131) Lara Nelson, OH, USA
132) Beth Pilous, OH, USA
133) Sarah Clare, OH, USA
134) Carla Roth, OH, USA
135) Jenny Zukowski, MI, USA
136) Amanda Silic, MI, USA
137) Heather Gilroy, MD, USA
138) Kat Carrion, MD, USA
139) Michelle Stryjewski, MD USA
140) Elizabeth H Stevens, OR, USA
141) Alice Stevens, OR, USA
142) Tyler R. Monzie/ OR/ USA
143) Allea Martin, OR, USA
145) Jose Tancuan, Or, USA
146) Akia Woods, OR USA
147) Bernie Gardent, OR, USA
148) Leslie Hall, OR, USA
149) Susan J. Woods, OR, USA
150) [Cegelnik, Dixie] , OR, USA
151) Susan Amburgey, OR, USA
152) Cindy Harboldt, OR, USA
153) Richard Rehm, CA, USA
154) Lyn Lindsay, CA, USA
155) Alma Gilligan, CA, USA
156) Maureen Lechwar, CA, USA
157) Leslie Morales, CA, USA
158) Marci Marcantonio, CA, USA
159) Jill Haskins, CA, USA
160) Jacqueline Gouly, CA, USA
161) Janet Talbott, CA, USA
162) Manjula Subbiah, CA, USA
163) Susan Duncan, CA, USA
164) Blanca E. Reynoso, CA, USA
165) Ruth C. Reynoso, Ca, USA
166) Phyllis H. Rawlins, Anaheim, CA, USA
167) Lori Rice, Naples, Italy
168) Mina Giovannitti, Las Vegas, USA (Turkey)
169) Fred Giovannitti, Las Vegas, USA
170) Noelle Brunelle, NV, USA
171) Kimberly A. Karl, NV, USA
172) Alana Segall, NV, USA
173) Mark Leonard, NV, USA
174) Nancy Leonard, NV, USA
175) Troy Leonard, NV, USA
176) Robert Mock AZ., USA
177) Patty Flanigan AZ, USA
178) William A Towne III, AZ, USA
179) Ellen J. Matheson, Los Angeles, CA, USA
180) Theresa Leets, Los Angeles, CA, USA
181) G. Ahou Soomekh, Los Angeles, CA, USA
182) Ronith Herman, El Paso, TX
183) Lauren R. Stein, PA, USA
184) Michelle F. King, PA, USA
185) Jere' Webb, CA, USA
186) Kim Anderson, CA, USA
187) Kirsten Hinsdale, VA, USA
188) Ronald David, Wash, DC
189) Cheryl Barnes, Buffalo, NY
190) Dawne David, Wash DC, USA
191) Madhu Dutta New Delhi, India
192) Madhu Sen New Delhi, India
193) Alokparna, VA USA
194) Anjali Dasgupta, MS USA
195) Tilottama Brahmachari, NJ, USA
196) Chandrima Datta Ray, MS, USA
197) Jaydip Datta Ray, MS, USA
198) Maria Florencia Vidano, MA, USA
199) Matteo Dufour,Genova, Italia
200) Francois Dufour, Lugano, Switzerland
201) Francesco Ricasoli, Firenze, Italia
202) Lena Larsson, Stockholm, Sweden
203) Katarina Wigle, Stockholm, Sweden
204) Petter Aberg, Stockholm, Sweden
205) Per-Anders Stensson, Uppsala, Sweden
206) Malin Martensson, Uppsala, Sweden
207) Maria Carlstedt
208) Eli Cathrine Wilhelmsen, Uppsala, Sweden
209) AnnaMaria Billing, Uppsala, Sweden
210) Christina Molnar, Uppsala, Sweden
211) Christina Bergmark, Stockholm, Sweden
212) Katarina Mimmi Spang, Stockholm, Sweden
213) Marta Terese Mornvik, Stockholm, Sweden
214) Sofi Hakansson, Malmo, Sweden
215) Asa Grogarn Sol, Goteborg, Sweden
216) Anders Jonsson, Goteborg, Sweden
217) Asa Ericsson, Goteborg, Sweden
218) Elna Foleide Selle, Bergen, Norway
219) Brynjar Stautland, Bomlo, Norway
220) Berte Figenschou Amundsen, Trondheim, Norway
221) Marte Morkved-Romstad, Oslo, Norway
222) Kjersti Forbregd, Trondheim, Norway
223) Inger Margrethe Torgersen, Oslo, Norway
224) Lisbeth Skogstrand, Oslo, Norway
225) Ragnhild Skogstrand, Stokmarknes, Norway
226) Hanne Husaas, Lier, Norway
227) Helena Wikstrom, Lund, Sweden
228) Kimberly Rapport, Ca, USA
229) Kristie Bennett, San Jose, CA, USA
230) Debi Di Bias, Santa Monica, CA, USA
231) Whitney Allen, San Francisco, CA USA
232) Kaaren Shalom, Los Angeles, CA USA
233) Gretchen German, Los Angeles, CA USA
234) Susan Peretz, Los Angeles, CA USA
235) Caryn West, Los Angeles, CA. USA
236) Heather Juergensen, Los Angeles, CA USA
237) Camryn Manheim. Los Angeles, CA USA
238) Julianne Williams, Los Angeles, CA USA
239) Jenna Elfman, Los Angeles, CA USA
240) Rachel Smith, Los Angeles, CA USA
241) Matthew Ian Glass, Los Angeles, CA USA
242) Bret R. Howey, Los Angeles, CA USA
243) Tammy Terrenzi, Los Angeles, CA USA
244) Jocelyn Jones Watkins. Santa Monica, Calif, USA
245) Irene Dirmann, Clearwater Florida USA
246) Stephanie Hamilton, Clearwater, FL USA
247) Racquel Skolnik, Glendale, CA
248) Katy Finch, Ridgewood, NY USA
249) Nina Gould, Brooklyn, NY USA
250) Glenn Mason, Manhattan, NY, USA
251) Melanie Kuhn, Athens, GA, USA
252) Lida Pejman, San Francisco, CA USA
253) Mitra Pejman, Berkeley, CA, USA
254) Fariba Soltani, Potomac, Maryland, USA
255) Noushin Bashir, San Diego, CA, USA
256) Mahasti ghazi, San Diego, CA, USA
257) Siamak Farah, Los Angeles, CA, USA.
258) Ben Amini, Windsor, Ca, USA
259) Mitra Shari, Richmond, Ca, USA
260) Mehdi Anvarian, San Francisco, CA, USA
261) Maziar Behrooz, Sanfrancisco, CA, USA
262) Nancy Hormachea, Berkeley, CA, USA
263) Ruth Shokat, Berkeley, CA, USA
264) Halleh Ghorashi, Nijmegen, The Netherlands
265) Tine Davids, Nijmegen, The Netherlands
266) Lau Schulpen, Nijmegen, The Netherlands
267) Stefan Verwer, Arnhem, The Netherlands
268) Jan de Weerd, Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
269) Maaike Riemersma de Feyter, Wageningen, The Netherlands
270) Wim Warman, Rotterdam, The Netherlands
271) Pauliina May, Rotterdam, The Netherlands
272) Marc Bischoff, Rotterdam, The Netherlands
272) David Rothschild, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
273) Ana Beck,Rio de Janeiro,Brasil
274) Annelies de Jong, Bergschenhoek, The Netherlands
275) Theo de Jong, Utrecht, The Netherlands
276) Philip Catherine
277) Jean-Louis baudoin
278) Aline Frankfort
279) Dominique Stoops
280) Viviane Teitelbaum-Hirsch, Belgium
289) Moise Rahmani, Belgium
290) Gad Nassi, Israel
291) Alper D.Aziz, Turkey
292) Izel Ciprut, Israel
293) Gabi Peretz, Tel Aviv, Israel
294) Jay K. Footlik, Tel Aviv, Israel
295) Doreen Hermelin Michigan U.S.A.
296) Lois Freeman Michigan USA
297) Patricia Baitler Boston, USA
298) Carla Migdal Santa Monica, USA
299) Michelle Migdal Gee, USA
300) Jacqueline Humbert Rosenboom, USA
301) Deborah Wargon, Germany
302) Mark Peters, Canary Islands, Spain
303) Olivia Peters, Canary Islands, Spain
304) Julia Maslach Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
305) Robert Carlson, Bainbridge Is., WA USA
306) Mary Fontaine-Carlson, Bainbridge Is., WA 98110
307) Penny Berk, Seattle, WA, USA
308) Cathryn Brompton, Oakland, CA, USA
309) Sheila Bienenfeld, Oakland, CA, USA
310) Alan Felsen, Glen Rock, NJ USA
311) Albert Fener, Blackstone MA, USA
312) Ellen Sevran, Los Angeles, CA USA
313) Barry L. Wolfe, Woodland Hills, CA USA
314) Bonnie L. Wolfe, Woodland Hills, CA USA
315) Kari Woods, Pasadena Ca, USA
316) Ronald Woods, Pasadena Ca, USA
317) Jerry O. Nwonye, Pasadena, CA, USA
318) Emily J. Choge, Pasadena, CA. USA.
319) Kevin S. Cho, Arcadia, CA., USA
320) Lindsey Na, Burbank, CA, USA
321) Jonathan Cho, South Pasadena, CA, USA
322) Joshua Choi, South Gate, CA, USA
323) David Han, VAncouver, BC, Canada
324) Zinkoo Han, Turkey
325) HyeonShil Choi, Turkey
326) John Cornelius, Ankara Turkey
327) Mathilda Cozijnsen, Zeist, Netherlands
328) Frits van Triest, Vaassen, Netherlands
329) Annelies van Wijngaarden, Netherlands
330) Hanny Ebbers, Netherlands
331) Jack Bil, Netherlands
332) Rianne Boender, Rotterdam, Netherlands
333) Sa'eeda Versluis- van Winkel, Rotterdam, Netherlands
334) Karin van Doorn,Rotterdam,Netherlands
335) Martine Hofstede,Rotterdam,The Netherlands
336) Connee Collins, Conway, AR, USA
337) Kelley Phelps, Conway, AR, USA
338) Lynne Mordecai, NLR, Ar, USA
339) Bonnie Landis, Wichita, KS, USA
340) Sue Robare, Derby, KS, USA
341) Kathy Byers, Wichita, KS, USA
342) David Byers, Wichita, KS, USA
343) Bryan Byers, Wichita, KS, USA
344) Rowe P. Byers, Wichita, KS, USA
345) Millicent Weatherman, CO, USA
346) William Smerber, CA, USA
347) ZoAnn Smerber, CA, USA
348) James Carrara, CA, USA
349) Maxine Carrara, CA, USA
350) Lillian Duval, CA, USA
351) Patrick Duval, CA, USA
352) Suzanne L. Duval, CA USA
353) Emily Thacker
354) Charles Mitchell, Fairfax, Virginia, USA
355) Fred Lokay, Warrenton, Virginia, USA
356) Marian Lokay, Warrenton, Virginia, USA
357) Marlene J. Mills, West Palm Beach, FL USA
358) Jeanne Conner, USA
359) Amelia Murray, Miami, FL, USA
360) Bob Lightner, Gainesville, FL USA
361) Jenna Jenks, Gainesville, Fl USA
362) Howard Jenks, Peoria, Arizona, USA
363) Lisa Jenks, Peoria, Arizona, USA
364) Shirley Jenks, Peoria, Arizona, USA
365) Gayle Smythe, Phoenix, Arizona, USA
366) Mary Horner, Modesto, CA, USA
367) Judy Brock, Chowchilla, California, USA
368) Deborah Amaolo, Calgary, AB, CANADA
369) Alex Bradshaw, Houston, Texas
370) kelly sheree allen, texas, usa
371) Cheryl Goodwin Baytown. TX

372) Frank Gullett, Calimesa, CA. USA

373) James Clair Lewis, Los Angeles, Calif, USA (jcldragon)


PLEASE COPY this email on to a new message, add your name to the list and forward it to appropriate people in your address book.

If you receive this list with more than 500 names on it, please e-mail a copy of it to:


sarabande@brandeis.edu

or your representatives in Congress

Even if you decide not to sign, please be considerate and do not kill the petition. Please forward it to someone else anyway.

Thank you, and God Bless you.

(When you highlight the part of the petition that you want to forward, then hit "forward", it allows you to add your own comments and sign your name)

[Entyce]

I had no idea the situation in Afghanistan was so bad. As far as I know the government was overthrown back in '96 and taken over by the current one. And we're not talking political elections here, more running into the government HQ and pointing machine guns in their faces until they sign a statement giving powers to other people.

I don't know about America but Britain doesn't even recognize the government in Afghanastan as legitamate and will not even speak with them on these issues.

[jcldragon]

<a href="http://home.beseen.com/internet/jclanim1/tiles.gif" target="blank"><img src="http://home.beseen.com/belief/jcldragon/myicons/tiles.gif" align="left"></a>rkoppinger has a topic in OIT about how the State of Oklahoma is putting a 15 year old girl on trial for Witchcraft. Full details can be found by following this link.

http://www.atforumz.com/showthread.php?threadid=20330

[Zardoz808]

On December 12,2012 a march throughout the world will take place...To end the systematic removal of what is natural,to attain our basic freedoms and rights,to end hate in its tracks,to rid ourselves of the tyranny of the small population that believes money is the controler of men.

-This will be done non-violently.
-This will be done out of the love for our friends as well as our enemies.
-This will be done without ANY hatred or words of hatred.
-This will be done.

All you must be is peaceful,loving,and have the will to die for this cause-for the governments will not want to lose their holds on our minds, on their money...
Free yourself from them on that day!Spread the word now!
If not then...When?
No more political,social,economic,race,gender,age,or religious boundries-only the boundries of the loving, open minds of all humans shall remain.

This spark must ignite a fire within us all!We must unite together!Put this nuclear fear to rest.Wars end only to begin again.A massive,non-violent movement that dwarfs all previous ones will undo these unjustices.
Do what you can with what you have my friends-The word of peace will not go away...Only the hatred that consumes the hearts of humanity shall go.Their bullets can not penetrate our peaceful souls...their prisons can not contain us all
To Freedom at long last!!Do not let it be destroyed-spread the good word...the suppressed need us now more than ever.

[Rivergirl]

I agree 100%! But where will it end if those of us do not speak out for our rights,and for our rights for our children in the future? We live in a day and age of Glass Houses and Corporate rule. We no longer have any say so of our privacy.
Our lives are in constant exploitation. Our personal lives as we know it are up for grabs for any one wanting to buy our personal information. Our social security numbers, our bank records, our phone records...anything in our lives is for sale right now. Is our right to religious freedom up for sale too? Will our religion only be accepted because there may be money to be made out of it?




Veni Vidi Vici!!!!

[Zardoz808]

How much money did Ghandi need or want?
I require nothing from anyone in this, but a voice and an open mind.
Continue your own beliefs-so as long as no one is hurt mentaly or physically.
On that day amass on your respective state or nations capital.
On that day demand the disarming of this barbaric society, by peaceful means-Nuclear paranoia must be stopped NOW!
Weapons of peace indeed!Such a silly notion that is.
This movement needs a voice and direction that will take shape as the years brush by us...
The poorest man, the richest man are all needed for this cause.
Poor=This man or woman knows how to survive without material bondage...
Rich=This man or woman knows how to bring the material resources to achieve a common good...we hope.
Love=the ultimate destroyer of fear and injustices
Hate=The ultimate destroyer of all who use it

Take a stand on this...stand up be counted-be one!

[Rivergirl]

hehehe Zardoz. I wasnt referring to you personally. But to the attitudes of the population and of the government.

[Zardoz808]

They shall be overcome by the peaceful masses seeking freedom throughout the world.Bullets can't penetrate the soul, or kill all who desire the most basic of human desires.One voice,one chain.We come in peace and in the name of freedom.

[Rivergirl]

I realize this is a serious topic. But just the thought of outbound telemarketers jumping on the bandwagon kinda sends a chill up my spine!
"Hi how are you this evening! Im so-and-so from the Spiritual Credit Card company, as our valued customer, we are giving you this "once-in-a-lifetime" credit card protection opportunity,the protection price is for a limited time only! This low price is only for our priority "New Age" customers such as yourself,at an introductory of $49.99 we can offer you and your family, protection from eternal damnation.And just for $10.00 more, insurance for any hoo doos gone awry......."
Ewe I dread the very thought! LOL



Vini Vedi Vici

[Zardoz808]

Money has no bearing in any of this...All I'm asking is for people to come together at Washington D.C, or their respective capitals around the world 0n 12/12/2012. If enough people want this to work for the planet to survive-it will work. If people don't care enough now or in the future to come together...I hope you are all going to be happy living in the mess we've made of the world.
Thanks for the clarifying questions!
This isn't for me or you, but for the good of the many-the good of all source of life...The Earth.
Love, luck, and happiness to us all! 12/12/2012

[Run, Anastasia]

I'm sorry, but since Rivergirl already mentioned this, I decided to say something too...When I first read this, I was like, what is this? Some sort of advertisement? I've had lots of calls from telemarketers lately...And I'm tired, so...>^.^< Whoops!

[luminous]

why wait for 12/12/2012? why don't we all march in a life of ahisma daily? gandhi never waited for anyone else or never spent a large effort trying to convince anyone else to follow him. it was because of his own luminescence and vigor and truth that people naturally walked his path. you may spend all your efforts trying to mobilize a group of people who may never come together in reality, and then all that time will have been spent for what?

luminous

[Zardoz808]

You have it right luminous! Is a little help with peace so much to ask?Go about paying your taxes, voting for people that don't speak for you or the planet (then complain about it), and ignore the pain of others and the planet itself.I'm not selling cookies or wanting you to sell time-shares! Diseases spread, we spread like a cancer... What's wrong with me spreading the word of peace in this manner? I don't need or want your money,and no one should if they're involved ...12/12/2012 is a good enough time frame for people to get organized, and get out there(easy enough to remember as well). Sorry I wasn't thinking when I thought I could change things...it seems no one speaks for this fragile planet anymore...I've been living day by day stopping people from commiting suicide,giving money to those less fortunate, loving everyone around me as my brother and sister...I agree to start peace now where ever you may be, but we need it to all fuse and come together for the good of the many... this country can do so much more if we open the door to peace, rather than drill some holes in it and get a glimpse. If we all came together in peace very great things will be possible for you and this planet. If I told you, and you, and you told them and so on-How many will be there on 12/12/2012?
I know,I know just me and some guy I paid to stand with me... Sorry I didn't think this was a bad idea...
The Mayan Calender ends around that time along with our old ways of thinking supposedly-the end of life as we know it... Possibly bussiness ,suppression ,depression ,and material bondage as usual though.I wanted change for all, and for the better as soon as possible...You've all made very good points-It sounded good at the time. Guess I'll start that Fight Club thing now...*sigh*

Wishing and working for love , luck , peace , understanding , compromise , and all that other stuff that we lost on our way out of The Devine... Peace be with us all indeed.

[luminous]

I think we both misunderstood each other a bit. It's good to mobilize people into coming together for the good and the betterment of everyone, but telling them to wait for something twelve years from now isn't going to do it. People will naturally follow if they want to when you take control of an external situation they see as flawed and want fixed. However, if you don't start acting now and encourage others to take control now, everyone is going to remain in a state of apathy and indifference and no one will ever march in their nation's capital as you hope. What are you doing now to bring people together? 12 years is a while, but it sounds like you're trying to get a huge amount of people excited about something they don't know if they want to be involved in. These things take steps.

I work for the betterment of my environment in many ways, on many levels, and I am glad you do too. However, you can't change everything within that one single day. There's many of us who work every day to help others and promote peace and justice, as I'm sure you do too.

I'd write more but I need to run to class...I hope you don't take offense to what I write.. Just view it as a different perspective, and leave it at that.

luminous

[Zardoz808]

I see your point exactly-I live each day to see peace the next,donate what I can when I can where I can...I just don't want to die the last messenger of a free world.

Love, luck, and happiness to us all!

[Rivergirl]

I agree with Luminous. Although I am out of the job market and am currently a domestic engineer, my time doesnt go in vain.I spend my time, today, trying to make a difference for all consumers. I am a privacy/consumer advocate who is not afraid to make needed consumer issues known to Congress [or wherever that particular issue at hand needs to be addressed.] I do believe in standing up for the rights of the people, and many are apathetic and afraid to speak out.Many seem to think that this is "just the way it is" in this world we live in today, then complain like hell without ever taking any initiative whatsoever to make a change. I personally am not that way. I will not wait until tommorrow to complain or bring to attention to the appropriate individuals of the government what must BE ADDRESSED TODAY.
Tommorrow? 2012? To me, TODAY IS TOMMORROW!



VENI! VIDI! VICI!

[Zardoz808]

It's good to know I'm not the only one then.I just thought we could all come together and join on that date...oh well
I myself have given it all to my fellow man.Just wanted to know if there were others intrested.
Love, luck, and happiness to us all!
-nevermind me I'm just an American
(Writers and artists-a poetic journey)

[jcldragon]

http://www.teachermagazine.org/tm/tmstory.cfm?slug=06wicca.h12

[Enchantress]

<font color="purple"><b>Keep us posted! We are here with you in faith, spirit , love and religion! Blessed be! ;k
<center>Rock On! </center>

[LaddyOwen]

I had horrid nightmares last night. Just horrid, vivid terrifying nightmares. I woke up choking because I was crying so hard.


And now this.....

my GODS, this is unspeakable... I feel SO sick.. just sick.

[Tirgana]

Yes. Planes were hijacked and used as to attack the World Trade Center! I am asking everyone to pray and light a white candle, visualize the planet being surrounded with peace and protection. If we combine our energy, we can put a stop to this.
love and light
Tirgana

[jcldragon]

Bush has done nothing to promote peace in the Middle East, & this is the result.

I notice that this is another manefestation of Fundamentalism. As more & more people are turning to the Spiritual Path, Fundamentalism is losing its hold on the masses of people. Knowing that their days are numbered, Fundamentalists are turning to terrorism, to destroy as much as possible, while they still can.

I have the feeling that most of the most fanatical members of this terrorist group, just died in these attacks... except, of course, their leaders.

[Tirgana]

Please everyone let us combine our energency to fight back the darkness. I ask everyone to light a white candle and combine our energies to protect this planet. Visualize our enengies coming together to form a shield of love and light to protect those who are in danger.
love and light
Tirgana

[KV]

We really need to pray as hard as we can. My Goddess can this kind of violence continue? I am so worried and so frightened and so full of sorrow for all of those poor souls who died. I am especially worried about our future. Something has got to change. I am very nervous with Bush in office. I pray he and his staff handle this well.
Peace, Love and Prayers everyone!
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[KV]

Yes....let us all pray as hard as we can....I am with you all in magic and prayer.
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[Tirgana]

Now is really not a good time be an empath...It's like being stuck in the middle of crashing emotional waves of fear, anger, pain, sadness, and hopelessness. Anybody have an asprin?
Tirgana

[KV]

If you can donate blood as NYC and DC are going to really need it in the next week.
Thanks
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[Gentian]

is the Tarot card, The Tower. It's like that image has suddenly come alive in my mind. I will never look at that card the same way again.

Even the day. 9/11. 911? Not very funny. And the number 11 itself--twin towers. Some sicko put a LOT of thought & planning into this...:a

I, for one, had no inkling. I had a wonderful night's sleep, and was in high spirits this morning. As I left for work here in Boston at 8 AM, the first plane was taking off from Logan just a few miles away. By the time I was at my desk unwrapping my bagel---:a :a :a

This is a heartbreak.

I've moved from disbelief and shock and fear, to some sort of angry resolve. I just want to be at home right now, and hug my sister and my boyfriend for a long, long time....


Gentian :a

[DiosaAteinne]

My husband woke me up at 9:30, god, watching those towers fall, I just cried....this is sooo sad:( Its hard to belive that this happened, here in America. I lived in NYC(Queens the Long Island for 3 years) We just moved back to PA about 6 months ago... Looking at NYC on the news, it so sureal, it does not even look like the Big Apple..

Its just really fucked up (sorry)

[jeth]

Everyone go home tonight and tell your family and friends you love them.

Give blood. The Oklahoma Blood Institute reports sending nearly their entire supply, all but one week's worth, of blood to New York, and they'll need much, much more. Call your local radio station and find out about local blood drives, or check in with your local federally approved donation center. Despite this awful tragedy, you could still make a difference in saving a life.

I love you all,
j.

[DiosaAteinne]

Tirgana, I know how you feel, I have been in tears most of the day, upset stomache, I am just sick...

This is horrible!! My one stepson just came home from school and said that "we are all going to die"

[PotatoFace]

I have had my white candle burning all day. It is a mircale that it is burning all day. IT is one of those candles like those jesus candles in the glass like bottle.




i am scared, I am afraid, I am crying.


Goddess and God, please, give us strength.

[AnnOnimous]

It's superficial, but it's the only thing that my mind can settle on right now. The New York Skyline will never be the same. Certain things will remain embedded into my subconscious for a long time... the footage of the plane crashing through the second tower as the first burned, the shot of a police car after the collapse, surrounded by debris and on fire, but the lights still flashing their blue warning to the city. Palestenians dancing in the streets. Smoke billowing from the Pentagon. News that the astronauts on the space station were able to see the plume of smoke from the WTC. "This makes Pearl Harbor look like a picnic" a WWII vet in the Orlando Airport said that. Watching the towers collapse. Disney's closed, that gives an idea of how bad it is, the happiest place on earth has closed it's doors.

Let me just wake up and this all be a dream.

[Gawen]

My dear friend posted this on her website (<a href="http://www.galenorn.com/">Galenorn En/Visions</a>) and I wanted to share it with everyone...




An Open Letter:
Okay, it's time for those of us who work with energy to pull together. I am going to be setting up an altar for the dead, for peace and protection...if everyone who works with energy does something to focus, then maybe our workings will be felt--there are a lot of souls that departed today in confusion and pain, a lot of frightened people don't know what to do, and our country needs as much love now as we can give it, and as much support.

In whatever way you work best, be it magick, prayer, or simply 'good thoughts', let's build a web of energy to try and help out...if you have friends who do the same, encourage them to add their energy....if we know we are not alone in doing this, it can make the work stronger.

Also: encourage people to give blood. I've got a link below to help you find the nearest donation point. If you can give it, then do so. If you can't, then do whatever you can to help out.

In love, sorrow and shock,
Yasmine Galenorn



URGENT:
The Red Cross Will Need
Blood Donations For
The Victims of the World Trade Center Attacks--
If you can, donate.
For info, click <a href="http://www.redcross.org/">here</a>.
If the link is busy (as are many today),
call your local newspaper or
television station or hospital to ask
where to go.

[Dallandra]

Forwarded from a friend...


Please post this to pagan lists.

There are many things we can do magickally about this, and it will work
best if we have some degree of cohesiveness.

1. Invoke Athena to be with our leaders. Athena is the goddess of wisdom
and of defensive war. We need wise leaders to lead us through this and
to catch those responsible and bring them to justice.

2. Invoke the local deities of the land and the Ancestors to take energy
released from the deaths of those killed in the attack and transmute it
into healing energy for those who survived and for the land itself.

3. Invoke your circle guardians to stand guard at the borders of the US
and protect from additional threats. Dion Fortune and her people did it
during the Battle of Britain, we can do it now.

Lady Sile, Seattle

[Rabbittmoon]

Last night I had a nightmare too. then when I woke up my boyfriend had the news on and I thought it was still a nightmare.
But it wasnt.
How sad & f*cked up.
Good point JCL about the most extreme terrorists being dead. I can only hope you are right, but this does give me some hope.
I am scared for the future too. Please let this be the last one.
Hey cool, Im seeing a man on the 57th level in the WTC that walked out unharmed. I thought noone could have survived that.
Peace & Hope,
Brooke

[Rabbittmoon]

Excellent Idea. I had actually planned to set up my altar today & its really strange that this happens today. anyway lets all pull together & do what we can & thanks for the link also.
Love & Light,
Brooke

[Ranazen]

The best thing to do is not to let the Fear control you. I am doing my best to stay grounded focusing on my breathing and sense of love..

[Ranazen]

Originally posted by jcldragon
Bush has done nothing to promote peace in the Middle East, & this is the result.

I notice that this is another manefestation of Fundamentalism. As more & more people are turning to the Spiritual Path, Fundamentalism is losing its hold on the masses of people. Knowing that their days are numbered, Fundamentalists are turning to terrorism, to destroy as much as possible, while they still can.

I have the feeling that most of the most fanatical members of this terrorist group, just died in these attacks... except, of course, their leaders.

oh yes indeed! I completely agree with you here about this being the last gasp of fundamentalism.

[staringatthesun]

I didnt feel anything wrong last night or this morning...i got to class today and everyone was talking about it, and thats when someone turned on a radio and i knew...chills kept running down by body over and over...my prayers are with everyone suffering now.

[jcldragon]

Well, now I know why I have had a headache for 24 hours. My cat & even my goldfish, seem to be affected by what is going on.

I hope you guys don't mind that I consolidated all these threads. I just feel it best, if we focus our energies in one place.

[Peter]

Oi.

I'm so sorry for them all.

Everybody. On both sides.

It was like...ugh. I could feel it. And I did NOT like it.

ugh.

-Pete

[jcldragon]

<center><img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~jclairlewis/sigs/candle2.gif"><p>Where the Light Shines, the Darkness recedes.

[Dallandra]

I'm wondering about the banner at the top of the page. It says "In memory of the innocents who lost their lives and the brave who gave their lives 9-11-01." Who are the brave exactly? :t

[sheanight]

Dallandra, I think it might be speaking of, the pilot and crew of the two confirmed direct dive crashes in the open fields...the people in and all around the WTC-twin towers, whom made a effort to try and help in a fucking hell on earth situation...the crews of rescue teams, law enforcement, and medical personel that had rubble collapse on them during the early unfoldings of this nightmare.

[Dallandra]

ahh, that makes sense. I hadn't heard about the rubble falling on rescue people. :a

[sheanight]

Originally posted by Dallandra
ahh, that makes sense. I hadn't heard about the rubble falling on rescue people. :a
...yeah it is heart sinking (if we all could be anymore lower), to think they all just were there to help..geez.
Let's just love eachother a little more from now on.
.......shea

[jcldragon]

285 firefighters

[KV]

Hey everyone...just checking in....I have been watching the news all day yesterday and this morning and I am just still in shock. But I am sooooooo proud of how Americans have been pulling together. We have a lot of problems in this country....but when the shit hits the fan....we can be a rock.....that is so good to know.

I am very VERY concerned about what will happen next. I would hate to see anymore violence, but I do not see how this cannot be retaliated. I just pray that whatever happens is not rashly carried out. I have had my protection, healing and emotional balance candle burning as well as a white candle of peace....I gotta go get new candles!

It is amazing to me that people in many countries around the world have lived and live with this kind of fear from terrorism on a daily basis....and with the people of NYC and DC and those in the planes....I am just thinking about ALL victims of terrorism from around the world....from Ireland to South America....it is just horrid. And it is so cowardly and makes no sense to me.....I am starting to ramble now....but I just wanted to say good morning to all you lovelies....try to give blood today....and keep those prayers whispered and those candles burning!
Love Yous!

XOXOXO
Peace and Love
Rachel

[nicANDjethro]

Rachel, I want to add that I, too, am sooooo very proud about how we've really been pulling together...

Over and over, I've heard, "We have almost TOO MANY volunteers...TOO MANY doctors....blood donors with a 3 and 4 hour wait"

This means alot to me...

When I walked into our lifeblood center yesterday, there were LINES. My heart smiled.

My love to those who've been affected,
Nic

[AnnOnimous]

Central Florida Blood Bank is reporting an average wait time of four to six hours for donating blood since yesterday. For the first time in a long time we have not only enough blood for the Central Florida area, but have been able to send out 400 units to the victims, and that's probably out of date by now. We average 800 donations a day, but yesterday alone in the 17 counties that the Central Florida Blood Bank works in there were 4000 donors.

I'm getting ready to go give some of mine right now... just nerving myself up, it can't be worse than having an IV port in my hand for 24 hours...

*takes a few deep breaths and a drink of water and leaves*

[KV]

Originally posted by AnnOnimous
We average 800 donations a day, but yesterday alone in the 17 counties that the Central Florida Blood Bank works in there were 4000 donors.

I'm getting ready to go give some of mine right now... just nerving myself up, it can't be worse than having an IV port in my hand for 24 hours...

*takes a few deep breaths and a drink of water and leaves*

When I went today they gave me a ticket and told me to come back tomorrow because they just could not take anymore donors here in Tampa, Florida....and this is at the Yankee Stadium Legends Field...rock the house!
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[Rabbittmoon]

I too am so proud of the way we're all pulling together in a time like this.
I just heard that the people on the plane that went down before it had time to crash into anything else knew about the WTC crashes & pulled together to overtake the hijackers. Those people were heroes. That is truly touching. Goddess knows how many lives those heroes saved in pulling together & kicking those hijackers asses. I will be lighting a hero candle tonight to honor all those brave souls.
And youre right Ranazan, thanks. I will not let my fear control me. Staying grounded.
love & light to all of you,
Brooke

[Rabbittmoon]

Oh yeah & the Red Cross told me that they are overwhelmed right now & recommended that I come in next week. She said there was a long long wait today & if I were to come this week I should be prepared to wait hours & bring a book with me.
Truly touching that everyone is actively helping. Such an emotional time.

[KV]

Just checking in with some love...

I had not heard about the passengers on the Penn plane Brooke....wow....I am in awe of the bravery of men and women. Does anyone know if there were any children on any of these flights???

I also heard that it may appear that the hijackers booked most of the seats on the planes in advance so that they would not have to deal with so many passengers....so bizarre....it is amazing....just simply amazing. We see such ugliness and horror and hate in human eyes...but then we see such beauty, bravery, peace and love.....this life....this world....it is truly a fascinating, but macabre thing.

Peace and Love to you all.
XOXOXO
Rachel

[jcldragon]

I feel so tired. I've been doing a lot of behind the scenes stuff with other moderators to keep peace on this site in general.

BTW, AnnieO? Will we be seeing more of you around here from now on?

{{{HUGS}}}

[AnnOnimous]

*shrug*
who knows, things seem to be slowing down a bit, but it's been a strange year. right now the household's still somewhat in shock from yesterday's events and my father's just been watching tv unless he <i>has</i> to go get a gator. I'm going to try to be on as much as possible, I've missed everyone horribly, but I'm not sre if this lull is temporary or not.

-AnnieO... who was supposed to be on the news yesterday getting a six foot eight inch gator out of a swimming pool, but noooooo... darn terrorists had to run those planes into the WTC and steal my fifteen minutes.

[pretty dark]

annio *hug* i've missed you.

[IrisMagpie]

Checking in. You know, I've actually felt worse today about all this than I have before. I think it's the fact that we're starting to have names of people who are missing, they're starting to estimate how many are still missing, etc. On tuesday, it just seemed so big...so unimaginable. Now, we're starting to know the names of the dead. The thousands dead. I've almost cried several times today. *sucking it up* I'll get through it tho, don't worry. :)

[pretty dark]

i can't go too long without crying...

[AnnOnimous]

missed you too prettydark... i heard the news, congrats! hopefully i'll be on more often here... *crosses her fingers*

[KV]

Originally posted by IrisMagpie
Checking in. You know, I've actually felt worse today about all this than I have before. I think it's the fact that we're starting to have names of people who are missing, they're starting to estimate how many are still missing, etc. On tuesday, it just seemed so big...so unimaginable. Now, we're starting to know the names of the dead. The thousands dead. I've almost cried several times today. *sucking it up* I'll get through it tho, don't worry. :)

It's ok to not suck it up to Kara....I have been crying for the past two days....there is only so much I can take of the news of the families and the individuals who have died....we are all going to go through some serious psychological trauma in the next few weeks and months trying to put things back into perspective....preparing for some kind of retaliation...worrying about everything that you can possibly worry about. The more you release, the stronger you will be....if you can that is....there are some moments when I am just numb....you know? There is no emotion....then I just break down and I usually feel a little bit better after letting tears flow. But everyone deals with tragedy and trauma differently.

There is no room for guilt either in feeling happy or in laughter....that is SOOO important now more than ever! Counting your blessings....feeling thankful that you and your loved ones are ok....and doing what you can (what YOU can) to support your fellow humans....from giving blood to being supportive of a Muslim friend....to just being with your friends and loved ones....it's all good....it's all needed.

Kimmo just posted a wonderful post on the Kate Bush boards about exactly what we are talking about. You know....this is the hardest part of life....what we are dealing with now....this is the dark end we are facing....and this is when we have to just do the best we can....ban together....pray....and try to be as strong as we can.

I love you guys!
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[witchfinder general]

I'm so proud of you all.
I'll be doimg something this weekend, I'm not sure what, but something.
Thinking of you,

Katie

[jcldragon]

I have been having this growing feeling that since the terrorists knew in advance that they would never be able to hijack planes again, that they have planted people in our midst who will attempt to contaminate our water supplies with biological weapons. Perhaps the FBI has considered this possibility, and is taking preventative steps, but it would be a good idea to drink only bottled water or (better yet) water from a local spring. It has always been a good idea to stockpile some pure water in your home anyway.

[KV]

Originally posted by jcldragon
I have been having this growing feeling that since the terrorists knew in advance that they would never be able to hijack planes again, that they have planted people in our midst who will attempt to contaminate our water supplies with biological weapons. Perhaps the FBI has considered this possibility, and is taking preventative steps, but it would be a good idea to drink only bottled water or (better yet) water from a local spring. It has always been a good idea to stockpile some pure water in your home anyway.

Damn I thought about this too and that is just the most frightening idea....I am sticking to bottled....but I worry that they will contaminate that too....I also worry about panic that are attached to these ideas....so where I agree that we should be prepared and careful....we should not panic...that is another thing that the terrorists want....they want us to go into a state of chaos and we just have to remain as calm as possible...Just be aware :)
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[AnnOnimous]

What bothers me more is....

How long does it take Anthrax or any other agent used in biological warfare to surface in humans? What if there was shit like that in those planes?

[KV]

Originally posted by AnnOnimous
What bothers me more is....

How long does it take Anthrax or any other agent used in biological warfare to surface in humans? What if there was shit like that in those planes?

Well....all we can do is pray that they will not resort to that....and if they do....just take the proper precautions....like I said before....it is really easy to let these ideas run away with you....let's just take one step at a time and cross each bridge when we get to it.
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[jcldragon]

The idea that tap water is not a good thing to drink, is not a new idea. I've been hearing that for at least 35 years. It has been shown that tap water often contains asbestos, lead, cryptosporidium, and lots of other nasty junk. Evian is "Naive" spelled backwards... hint hint.

It seems unlikely that terrorists would go after the sources of pure bottled water, since only a small segment of the population uses them, BUT the major sources of tap water are an obvious choise. Perhaps the FBI has already considered this & taken precautions. I don't know, but it is better to be safe, than sorry. And I keep feeling that this would be the next line of attack.

[KV]

Originally posted by jcldragon
I don't know, but it is better to be safe, than sorry. And I keep feeling that this would be the next line of attack.

I understand that completely JC...and I agree....I also think that taking precautions and being aware is most definitely wise and I have thought about them myself...but with all of that said....I still think it is also wise to understand that some of those ideas can easily become irrational and cause people to become so fearful that more rage, hate, intolerance and panic can ensue unnecessarily....so all I am doing is balancing one precaution with another....things are so delicate right now you know?
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[Rabbittmoon]

Honestly, It had not occured to me that they could contaminate our tap water... But I swear I heard them talking about testing water on CNN yesterday. Maybe I dreamed it. But hopefully they are testing our water.
*crossing fingers*
On a positive note:
You know, I think something good comes out everything bad thing. This is a huge horrible thing so surely the world will change for the better. Good, in general, will prevail.
Over dinner last night, Kara said, in tears almost, that this horrible disaster has somehow restored her faith in humanity. As crazy as this sounds, I totally agree. Everyone is pulling together, this has brought the toughest men to tears... The president to tears...Everyone is helping, everyone is saying, "whatever way you pray, pray" this wasnt americans they attacked. this was the world. we are the world. We are moms, dads, sisters, brothers, muslims, christians, pagans, jews, white, black...everybody. And you know what, sooo many people out there are heroes, not just all soldiers or the police or the fireman, the people aboard flight 93 & many people we will never even know about. Average people.... bankers, lawyers, football players...

I just saw in a church service on CNN "The people of many faiths, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists....are saying 'Love is stronger than hate'"

That is the message & that is the truth!

I love you guys too!!!!
Brooke

[IrisMagpie]

Awwwww! :e LOVE LOVE LOVE for my girl Brooke. ;b You're the best sweetie.

We may have to drive to Atlanta tomorrow to pick up my dad. He's at the airport in Redding California now waiting to get a flight. Supposedly he's now set to get to Nashville at 9;30 tomorrow morning, but as we all know the flight schedule's a little crazy right now. As big a pain in the ass as it is, it's NOTHING compared to what's going on in NYC and DC. I'm just glad he's safe and we'll eventually get him home. :)

[KV]

<Brooke's Whole Post>

Rock and roll babydoll....you just said it perfectly :)
XOXOXO
Love and Peace
Rachel ;n

[Rabbittmoon]

*Big, Giant smile*

Its all about the love isnt it?
love love love,
Brooke

[jcldragon]

I found this topic in OIT, that I think you will all find of extreme interest.

http://www.atforumz.com/showthread.php?threadid=75492

[KV]

Originally posted by jcldragon
I found this topic in OIT, that I think you will all find of extreme interest.

http://www.atforumz.com/showthread.php?threadid=75492

That was posted on MTF as well and it is a wonderful article and should be passed around. Thanks JC ;n

XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[Rabbittmoon]

Yeah, thanks :l

[Rabbittmoon]

Ok after all that... I am getting really nervous. Every different opinion I hear about how the U.S. should respond is starting to sound like a bad idea. The idea is setting in that the whole world almost is going to be involved in a holy war. Maybe I shouldnt post this, I dont want to bring anyone else down (and I sound crazy posting this right after all my optimistic posts) but I could really use some good thoughts from my earthy friends...
Im trying hard here, I really am. But words like "A chess game- does the US have the belly- our way is not the only way- we should stay out of their affairs- America cannot turn a blind eye anymore- we cant stop terrorism- we need to pay attention to them now- innocent people- these women-HOLY WAR-we must retaliate-revenge or justice" are all running crazily in my head and I jumped from retaliate wisely please to "its a trap, dont retaliate! Hold fire!"
Well folks, I am stumped. I dont know what to think about this anymore. I feel like this war, if started, (which pretty much already has) will never end & terrorism cannot be stopped.
I still believe that love is stronger than hate, that is all I have. But I dont have any sense of how we should respond.....I hate war & remind me never to run for president.... or anything where I have to play a chess game with life.
love love love,
Brooke

[KV]

ohhh HUGS Brooke! We are all in the same boat....all of these loose ends and vulnerable feelings of the unknown are really horrible...the best thing we can do is pray pray PRAY that our leaders make the best decisions and that somehow more people wake up...not just here in the USA but ALL over the world....and realize that all of this bloodshed over vengeance and religion really is not worth it. What we MUST do is make the most of every moment....keep dreaming...having faith in the goodness of humanity and continue to work towards accomplishing our goals...
this is going to be a simplistic example...but if you are in a lake and you need to get to the other side and you keep walking until the water comes up to your chest....do you stop walking? No....you start swimming...and that is what we need to do....we need to just keep on keeping on until we reach our goals of peace and goodness. Just have hope...remember that with death there is also birth....if you are feeling really down...see if you can visit a pediatric ward and look at all the babies....or read about the births in the paper :)
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel :)

[Dallandra]

If you or anyone you know has a website, there's a black out going on this friday about resisting hate and war; check out http://chriskirkpatrick.nu/hate.html

[Rabbittmoon]

Rachel, you are absolutely right. I am feeling a lot better today but epsecially after reading that. :l I let fear get away with me yesterday *slaps head* but you are totally right. I am just going to have to hope the US makes the right decisions & stays a step ahead of these terrorists. Breathing out fear, breathing in hope.
thanks,
love love love,
and peace,
Brooke

[KV]

Originally posted by Rabbittmoon
Breathing out fear, breathing in hope.
thanks,
love love love,
and peace,
Brooke

kiss hug squeeze ;k

XOXOXO
Love
Rachel ;n

[KV]

Originally posted by Dallandra
If you or anyone you know has a website, there's a black out going on this friday about resisting hate and war; check out http://chriskirkpatrick.nu/hate.html

I am SO doing this! Thank you Dallandra!
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel :)

[Rabbittmoon]

:f *big hug to rachel* :f

love,
Brooke

[jcldragon]

INTERVIEW WITH NOAM CHOMSKY
By Radio B92 in Belgrade
9-18-2001

Q: : Why do you think these attacks happened?

Chomksy: To answer the question we must first identify the perpetrators of the crimes. It is generally assumed, plausibly, that their origin is the Middle East region, and that the attacks probably trace back to the Osama Bin Laden network, a widespread and complex organization, doubtless inspired by Bin Laden but not necessarily acting under his control. Let us assume that this is true. Then to answer your question a sensible person would try to ascertain Bin Laden's views, and the sentiments of the large reservoir of supporters he has throughout the region. About all of this, we have a great deal of information. Bin Laden has been interviewed extensively over the years by highly reliable Middle East specialists, notably the most eminent correspondent in the region, Robert Fisk (London _Independent_), who has intimate knowledge of the entire region and direct experience over decades. A Saudi Arabian millionaire, Bin Laden became a militant Islamic leader in the war to drive the Russians out of Afghanistan. He was one of the many religious fundamentalist extremists recruited, armed, and financed by the CIA and their allies in Pakistani intelligence to cause maximal harm to the Russians -- quite possibly delaying their withdrawal, many analysts suspect -- though whether he personally happened to have direct contact with the CIA is unclear, and not particularly important. Not surprisingly, the CIA preferred the most fanatic and cruel fighters they could mobilize. The end result was to "destroy a moderate regime and create a fanatical one, from groups recklessly financed by the Americans" (_London Times_ correspondent Simon Jenkins, also a specialist on the region). These "Afghanis" as they are called (many, like Bin Laden, not from Afghanistan) carried out terror operations across the border in Russia, but they terminated these after Russia withdrew. Their war was not against Russia, which they despise, but against the Russian occupation and Russia's crimes against Muslims.

The "Afghanis" did not terminate their activities, however. They joined Bosnian Muslim forces in the Balkan Wars; the US did not object, just as it tolerated Iranian support for them, for complex reasons that we need not pursue here, apart from noting that concern for the grim fate of the Bosnians was not prominent among them. The "Afghanis" are also fighting the Russians in Chechnya, and, quite possibly, are involved in carrying out terrorist attacks in Moscow and elsewhere in Russian territory. Bin Laden and his "Afghanis" turned against the US in 1990 when they established permanent bases in Saudi Arabia -- from his point of view, a counterpart to the Russian occupation of Afghanistan, but far more significant because of Saudi Arabia's special status as the guardian of the holiest shrines.

Bin Laden is also bitterly opposed to the corrupt and repressive regimes of the region, which he regards as "un-Islamic," including the Saudi Arabian regime, the most extreme Islamic fundamentalist regime in the world, apart from the Taliban, and a close US ally since its origins. Bin Laden despises the US for its support of these regimes. Like others in the region, he is also outraged by long-standing US support for Israel's brutal military occupation, now in its 35th year: Washington's decisive diplomatic, military, and economic intervention in support of the killings, the harsh and destructive siege over many years, the daily humiliation to which Palestinians are subjected, the expanding settlements designed to break the occupied territories into Bantustan-like cantons and take control of the resources, the gross violation of the Geneva Conventions, and other actions that are recognized as crimes throughout most of the world, apart from the US, which has prime responsibility for them. And like others, he contrasts Washington's dedicated support for these crimes with the decade-long US-British assault against the civilian population of Iraq, which has devastated the society and caused hundreds of thousands of deaths while strengthening Saddam Hussein -- who was a favored friend and ally of the US and Britain right through his worst atrocities, including the gassing of the Kurds, as people of the region also remember well, even if Westerners prefer to forget the facts. These sentiments are very widely shared. The _Wall Street Journal_ (Sept. 14) published a survey of opinions of wealthy and privileged Muslims in the Gulf region (bankers, professionals, businessmen with close links to the U.S.). They expressed much the same views: resentment of the U.S. policies of supporting Israeli crimes and blocking the international consensus on a diplomatic settlement for many years while devastating Iraqi civilian society, supporting harsh and repressive anti-democratic regimes throughout the region, and imposing barriers against economic development by "propping up oppressive regimes." Among the great majority of people suffering deep poverty and oppression, similar sentiments are far more bitter, and are the source of the fury and despair that has led to suicide bombings, as commonly understood by those who are interested in the facts.

The U.S., and much of the West, prefers a more comforting story. To quote the lead analysis in the _New York Times_ (Sept. 16), the perpetrators acted out of "hatred for the values cherished in the West as freedom, tolerance, prosperity, religious pluralism and universal suffrage." U.S. actions are irrelevant, and therefore need not even be mentioned (Serge Schmemann). This is a convenient picture, and the general stance is not unfamiliar in intellectual history; in fact, it is close to the norm. It happens to be completely at variance with everything we know, but has all the merits of self-adulation and uncritical support for power.

It is also widely recognized that Bin Laden and others like him are praying for "a great assault on Muslim states," which will cause "fanatics to flock to his cause" (Jenkins, and many others.). That too is familiar. The escalating cycle of violence is typically welcomed by the harshest and most brutal elements on both sides, a fact evident enough from the recent history of the Balkans, to cite only one of many cases.


Q: What consequences will they have on US inner policy and to the American self reception?

Chomsky: US policy has already been officially announced. The world is being offered a "stark choice": join us, or "face the certain prospect of death and destruction." Congress has authorized the use of force against any individuals or countries the President determines to be involved in the attacks, a doctrine that every supporter regards as ultra-criminal. That is easily demonstrated. Simply ask how the same people would have reacted if Nicaragua had adopted this doctrine after the U.S. had rejected the orders of the World Court to terminate its "unlawful use of force" against Nicaragua and had vetoed a Security Council resolution calling on all states to observe international law. And that terrorist attack was far more severe and destructive even than this atrocity.

As for how these matters are perceived here, that is far more complex. One should bear in mind that the media and the intellectual elites generally have their particular agendas. Furthermore, the answer to this question is, in significant measure, a matter of decision: as in many other cases, with sufficient dedication and energy, efforts to stimulate fanaticism, blind hatred, and submission to authority can be reversed. We all know that very well.


Q: Do you expect U.S. to profoundly change their policy to the rest of the world?

Chomsky: The initial response was to call for intensifying the policies that led to the fury and resentment that provides the background of support for the terrorist attack, and to pursue more intensively the agenda of the most hard line elements of the leadership: increased militarization, domestic regimentation, attack on social programs. That is all to be expected. Again, terror attacks, and the escalating cycle of violence they often engender, tend to reinforce the authority and prestige of the most harsh and repressive elements of a society. But there is nothing inevitable about submission to this course.

Q: After the first shock, came fear of what the U.S. answer is going to be. Are you afraid, too?

Chomsky: Every sane person should be afraid of the likely reaction -- the one that has already been announced, the one that probably answers Bin Laden's prayers. It is highly likely to escalate the cycle of violence, in the familiar way, but in this case on a far greater scale.
The U.S. has already demanded that Pakistan terminate the food and other supplies that are keeping at least some of the starving and suffering people of Afghanistan alive. If that demand is implemented, unknown numbers of people who have not the remotest connection to terrorism will die, possibly millions. Let me repeat: the U.S. has demanded that Pakistan kill possibly millions of people who are themselves victims of the Taliban. This has nothing to do even with revenge. It is at a far lower moral level even than that. The significance is heightened by the fact that this is mentioned in passing, with no comment, and probably will hardly be noticed. We can learn a great deal about the moral level of the reigning intellectual culture of the West by observing the reaction to this demand. I think we can be reasonably confident that if the American population had the slightest idea of what is being done in their name, they would be utterly appalled. It would be instructive to seek historical precedents.

If Pakistan does not agree to this and other U.S. demands, it may come under direct attack as well -- with unknown consequences. If Pakistan does submit to U.S. demands, it is not impossible that the government will be overthrown by forces much like the Taliban -- who in this case will have nuclear weapons. That could have an effect throughout the region, including the oil producing states. At this point we are considering the possibility of a war that may destroy much of human society.

Even without pursuing such possibilities, the likelihood is that an attack on Afghans will have pretty much the effect that most analysts expect: it will enlist great numbers of others to support of Bin Laden, as he hopes. Even if he is killed, it will make little difference. His voice will be heard on cassettes that are distributed throughout the Islamic world, and he is likely to be revered as a martyr, inspiring others. It is worth bearing in mind that one suicide bombing -- a truck driven into a U.S. military base -- drove the world's major military force out of Lebanon 20 years ago. The opportunities for such attacks are endless. And suicide attacks are very hard to prevent.


Q: "The world will never be the same after 11.09.01". Do you think so?

Chomsky: The horrendous terrorist attacks on Tuesday are something quite new in world affairs, not in their scale and character, but in the target. For the US, this is the first time since the War of 1812 that its national territory has been under attack, even threat. Its colonies have been attacked, but not the national territory itself. During these years the US virtually exterminated the indigenous population, conquered half of Mexico, intervened violently in the surrounding region, conquered Hawaii and the Philippines (killing hundreds of thousands of Filipinos), and in the past half century particularly, extended its resort to force throughout much of the world. The number of victims is colossal. For the first time, the guns have been directed the other way. The same is true, even more dramatically, of Europe. Europe has suffered murderous destruction, but from internal wars, meanwhile conquering much of the world with extreme brutality. It has not been under attack by its victims outside, with rare exceptions (the IRA in England, for example). It is therefore natural that NATO should rally to the support of the US; hundreds of years of imperial violence have an enormous impact on the
intellectual and moral culture.

It is correct to say that this is a novel event in world history, not because of the scale of the atrocity -- regrettably -- but because of the target. How the West chooses to react is a matter of supreme importance. If the rich and powerful choose to keep to their traditions of hundreds of years and resort to extreme violence, they will contribute to the escalation of a cycle of violence, in a familiar dynamic, with long-term consequences that could be awesome. Of course, that is by no means inevitable. An aroused public within the more free and democratic societies can direct policies towards a much more humane and honorable course







.... www.indymedia.org

[KV]

Wow...that is truly TRULY enlightening!!! Thank you JC....I am sending this off to people!
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel :)

[jcldragon]

falwell: the horses' mouth

http://www.poenews.com/imgs/falwell.mp3

[jcldragon]

Rawa is recognized by Amnesty International. They are a secular, non-violent left-wing group which has struggled for women's rights in Afghanistan, against both the Soviet Union, and the Taliban. Do not click on these links, unless you have a strong heart.

http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/ai.html

http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/index.html

[Gentian]

Originally posted by Rabbittmoon
Ok after all that... I am getting really nervous. Every different opinion I hear about how the U.S. should respond is starting to sound like a bad idea.

My feelings exactly.

I'm worried. This feels so much bigger than all of us, and I'm afraid our president will not know when enough is enough. "Infinite Justice"? That does not exactly sound like he is planning a short war. And what is our goal? To wipe out terrorism? That's impossible. It's like trying to wipe out racism. You can't do it with guns.

If we just gave proof or more information of Osama bin laden's guilt, supposedly the Taliban would hand him over peacefully. It's against their religion to not give someone sanctuary when there is no proof.

Sigh.

The last victorious general in Afghanistan was Alexander the Great.

May reasonable people, for once, prevail.

Blessings,
Gentian (whose feet are a bit cold this morning)

[KV]

Originally posted by Gentian

I'm worried. This feels so much bigger than all of us, and I'm afraid our president will not know when enough is enough. "Infinite Justice"? That does not exactly sound like he is planning a short war. And what is our goal? To wipe out terrorism? That's impossible. It's like trying to wipe out racism. You can't do it with guns.

Really that is such a good analogy. I don't have a lot of faith in the this whole "infinite justice" idea. Again it is that arrogant American attitude that is going to further this violent downward spiral. I read an interview with Osama bin Laden and my Goddess....he and his followers have a taste for blood....and they want to die....can we handle that? Are we ready? On the other hand....I saw a documentary on the Taliban last night called "Behind The Veil" and it makes my heart break...what are we to do? These poor civilians...especially the women and girls....my Goddess...I just could not sleep thinking about it. There really are demons and devils who live upon this earth. And I know that we as a country are not exempt...but Goddess have mercy....what those men do is evil.

XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[jcldragon]

In those who harbor thoughts of blame and vengeance towards others, hatred will never cease. In those who do not harbor such thoughts, hatred will surely cease. For hatred is never appeased by hatred. It is appeased by love. This is an eternal law. Just as a mother would protect her only child, even at the risk of her own life, even so let one cultivate a boundless heart towards all beings. Let one's thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world above below, and across, without any obstruction, without any hatred, without any enmity. Whether one stands, walks, sits, or lies down as long as one is awake, one should maintain this mindfulness. This, they say, is to attain the blessed state in this very life.

********************************

Our Suffering has been deep
From this suffering comes great compassion
Great Compassion makes a peaceful heart
A peaceful heart makes a peaceful person
A peaceful person makes a peaceful family
A peaceful family makes a peaceful community
A peaceful community makes a peaceful nation
A peaceful nation makes a peaceful world
amen

[Gentian]

Another thing that bothers me about this name (and everyone here understands the importance of names):

I do not think of Justice as going on infinitely. It has no need to be, because it already comes from an infinite source.

Justice is swift. Justice calmly sets things right, and moves on. Justice is proportional to the crime, and horrible as it was--nothing that terrorists do is infinite. That's one reason I'm afraid this whole thing will go out of control.

I very much like that Cambodian prayer.

I know that W is a religious man. He's actually a fundamentalist in his own right, but I still hope that he is seeking guidance from wise spiritual people right now--because this "Infinite Justice" idea seems very wrong. Maybe what he tells us at 9 o'clock tonight will change my mind, but I have a feeling it won't.

Blessings,
Gentian

thought: Justice is Card 11 in the Major Arcana. I was not at all surprised when this word turned up. ;O

[witchfinder general]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone or anything, but every time I hear "infinite justice" being talked about on the news or something I hear "final solution." I'm sorry, I can't help it, it's just what I hear.
And I've found out something that'll make you all hate me or at least despise me, anyway. I can't hate the people who did it. I feel so much pain for the victims and what poeple are going through is beyond my comprehension and I'm very angry at the pepole who did it, but if I had them tied up in front of me I wouldn't be able to hurt them. I use the word "hate" casually all the time, like "I hate that lecturer" or whatever, but I honestly don't think I really hate anyone. I don't know why, maybe I haven't experienced enough pain.
I feel a bit like this is a slap in the face to all the peole killed, but I honestly can't hate anyone and I don't want to kill pepole in Afghanistan or anywhere else.
Confession over. Again, I'm very sorry.

[Gentian]

Witchfinder,

You have nothing to be sorry for.

Too many people go overboard crying out for blood and vengeance. Some people oscillate with mixed feelings. (I guess I'm one of those.) But in times like these we always need some gentle, cool-headed and far-seeing people to serve as ballast, balance, and conscience.

If everyone hated the terrorists as much as some people do, "Infinite Justice" really would be a "Final Solution." (I agree with you about that name, by the way.:t ) There would be hate crimes left, right, and center because people would have no control.

I liked GWB's speech last night. Especially the "unmarked grave of discarded lies" line. I think it is the best speech he has ever given, better even than his speech at the Republican convention, which is the only other time he's spoken well. Last night W said all the things he needed to say, and ultimately he has the moral high ground here. War is very scary, and it may backfire on us horrifically, but I think he is unflinchingly doing the right thing, and the brave thing, and I will follow.

My only quibble: Why did he have to refer to the upcoming campaign as a 'crusade'? The word 'crusade' is to the Muslims what 'Inquisition' is to us, and it was very insensitive. He explained quite effectively that this war is not against Islam, but when you throw in a word like that, it can get extremist sympathizers suspicious.

Sigh. But. What's been said has been said. Time to get the mail.

Gentian :b

[jcldragon]

I think they are going to change the name to something other than Infinite Justice, in deference to Muslim allies. I don't think this campaign can be a success, unless we also crack down on our own domestic terrorist groups.

I want steps to be taken on the Spiritual Plane to ensure that terrorists not be allowed to reincarnate on this planet, since they are souls deliberately moving toward the darkness.

[KV]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gentian
Witchfinder,

You have nothing to be sorry for.

I agree Witchfinder....I feel the same way at times....I have been writing a lot about it in my journal....my feelings go back and forth....I may not hate them....but I hate what they do and have done and what they stand for. I try to remember what they would believe in had they not been in the kind of despair that they found themselves in. People can be manipulated when they have no where else to turn....so I try to have an open mind myself. I can honestly say that I hate and am disgusted by the Taliban and their actions...it is just not right and I am having nightmares about it....trying so hard to understand and see the whole picture....that is what my mind desperately wants to do....my heart just sinks though....I am also having some problems with those kinds of thoughts because I feel as though I have to hate them...it is very complex and confusing.

Too many people go overboard crying out for blood and vengeance. Some people oscillate with mixed feelings. (I guess I'm one of those.) But in times like these we always need some gentle, cool-headed and far-seeing people to serve as ballast, balance, and conscience.

Excellent point.

I liked GWB's speech last night. Especially the "unmarked grave of discarded lies" line. I think it is the best speech he has ever given, better even than his speech at the Republican convention, which is the only other time he's spoken well. Last night W said all the things he needed to say, and ultimately he has the moral high ground here. War is very scary, and it may backfire on us horrifically, but I think he is unflinchingly doing the right thing, and the brave thing, and I will follow.

I agree Gentian...I was pleasantly surprised and SO relieved that he has been backing our Muslim brothers and sisters and the civilians in Afghanistan....that is so important....I was over all pleased as well....it made me feel as though he does have people who are helping guide him in the "right" direction. Maybe this has changed him and his ideologies somewhat as well.

<b>My only quibble: Why did he have to refer to the upcoming campaign as a 'crusade'? The word 'crusade' is to the Muslims what 'Inquisition' is to us, and it was very insensitive. He explained quite effectively that this war is not against Islam, but when you throw in a word like that, it can get extremist sympathizers suspicious.</b>

Absolutely....SO many Muslims were tortured, crucified and murdered during the Crusades....it was genocide.

Again Gentian....you just plain old rock ;n

XOXOXO
Love
Rachel :)

[sheanight]

I hope y'all have real audio cause this was really cool. here's the link: http://www.wamu.org/dr/

Peace,
shea

PS... scroll all the way to the bottom of the page to the Thursday, September 20, 2001 spot.

[Gentian]

Originally posted by jcldragon

I want steps to be taken on the Spiritual Plane to ensure that terrorists not be allowed to reincarnate on this planet, since they are souls deliberately moving toward the darkness.

Is that possible?

Gentian

[Gentian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KundaVega
it is just not right and I am having nightmares about it....trying so hard to understand and see the whole picture....

:a I'm so sorry you're having nightmares, Rachel. Bad dreams are the absolute worst, because you do believe while you're in it that it's really happening. It's terrifying. In nightmares I've felt more afraid than I ever have in real life.

I am prone to nightmares myself, but fortunately I haven't had any terrorist-themed ones yet. It generally takes a while for new things to seep into my subconscious. Case in point: I'm 24, but I frequently dream that I'm back in high school or college, or occasionally even elementary school. But I know my day (or night) will come.


Maybe this has changed him and his ideologies somewhat as well.

I hope so...

Again Gentian....you just plain old rock ;n

Thank you! So do you, Rachel!

:)

Gentian

[jcldragon]

Got this from yahoo...

Dear Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Mrs. Frances Denman (of Indiana):

I am a Christian who has lived in New York City for 10 years and
I am putting an end to your vehemence right now. As I write this
e-mail I am sending it to everyone I know - so, that means, even if
you decide not to read past the first couple of lines, many, many,
many will. On Saturday, as I read my New York Times I came across your thoughtless, insensitive, cowardly remarks. At first, I was shocked and angered that one American would speak out against another American at a time like this - then saddened, because after considering who it came from - I really wasn't surprised. To Mrs. Denman, who called New York "a city full of sin," (NY Times - 9/15) and prayed "that this affects them until Jesus Christ comes back" (NY Times - 9/15)

I say:
1. You've obviously never been here,
2. That's OK we really don't want people with such useless judgments breathing our air,
3. We'll reserve it for those with open hearts and minds who want to see this city for all its color and wonder, but most important
4. I say if you would ever step outside into the streets of America,
or at the very least step outside of yourself to take a clue from one of your wonderful neighbors in Crawfordsville, IN, you may come to realize that God has always been in and has never left NYC - particularly not now.

We New Yorkers have always been among the loudest in celebrating and exploring the lives given to us - we don't sit in our living rooms and judge by lies we've heard - we go into the world and find out for ourselves and accept and cherish all of our differences and views of life. Now more than ever we, along with 99.99999999999999999% of Americans, honor those lives as we come together in our country's darkest hour.

To Mr. Robertson and Mr. Falwell (I refuse to call
either of your Reverend) mask and flower over your words of hate all you like, but we Americans are not that stupid. Quoting from the Sept.15th article in the New York Times that transcribed your
conversation on the 700 Club, you Mr. Falwell said, "What we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be minuscule if, in fact God
continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."

HOW DARE YOU. Mr. Falwell you went on to say, "the abortionists
have got to bear some of the burden," now call me crazy, but those words are pretty clear, and you went on, "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and lesbians who ar actively trying to make that alternative lifestyle...I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen'." HOW DARE YOU. And you Mr. Robertson, you replied, "Well, I totally concur."

Well, you go right ahead - the rest of us won't. "Pagans" as you
call them are people of many faiths (including Christians) who refuse to live by your creeds of fear, harsh judgment and money -they bring spontaneity and generosity to this world and its religions.

The "Abortionists" are pro-choice activists who defend our constitution that upholds a woman's right to choose - but then I wouldn't expect you to uphold this since the women of your congregation have fewer freedoms than any women in America. (Excuse me while I go get another sheet of paper)

The "Feminists" have fought long and hard so women in America could vote, work, and publicly speak their minds (God bless 'em), and today they work in ravaged countries to keep women from having acid thrown in their faces, or being stoned to death for daring to look at a man or laugh in public.

The "Gays and Lesbians" are among our best friends and neighbors. They are ALWAYS among the first to help anyone in need, any outcast, anyone who asks - and without judgment. These people you've labeled are Americans of compassion, love, and courage - traits God loves and gives - and I, with the rest of America, stand up for my friends, neighbors, and fellow citizens against your heinous decrees, and recognize more than ever that now is not the time for your kind of leadership.

The first firefighter to die was department Chaplain Father
Mychal Judge. He was a man of so much love, so little judgment, and no hate - that the firefighters he touched - those that are currently searching for 300 of their own and 5000 more still missing - that in the midst of their grief and exhaustion and anger, stopped in front of the news cameras the other day to say, "Fr. Mychal wouldn't want us to hate those terrorists." Here is the true Christian spirit if ever I heard it. Fr. Mychal was the first one in - the first body brought out - and this is his beautiful legacy.

As two national, public figures of Christianity and one follower, could the three of you not think of something better to say? I guess not - you said what you truly felt and this is your true legacy. Think about that tonight as the rest of America rises above the ashe and smoke of the World Trade Center, as we rise above you to stop these unspeakable acts of terrorism.

Usually, your lamentations don't affect me, I wouldn't waste the
energy it takes to blink my eyes on someone like you, but as a
spiritual American and a New Yorker, I'm writing to ask you to stop
making public proclamations - at least stop making them in the name of Christianity and America and make them in the name of the hate and the fear that they are. I told many friends and family members that once we've healed from this we would be stronger, more caring and more voiced than ever

- well, I guess I should thank you - you've proven my point by
inspiring me to write this letter and defend my countrymen before I ever thought I would have the strength to do so. I stand with the vast majority of Americans in unity - and recite "We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed." - II Corinthians 4:8 & 9.

The three of you, who call yourself Christians, need to take
another look at the Sermon on the Mount, particularly, chapter 7:1 - In case you've forgotten, it's in the book of Matthew. When you
decide to put down your judgments and join the rest of the country in the healing process, come to New York, our door is open, our food is great, and our voices sing. I forget your words now, but speak my mind forever to defend those I love and the country we live in.

1 of 8,000,000 New Yorkers - 1of 265,000,000 Americans, Lisa Stock

[KV]

Excellent! Thanks again JC!
By the way...where did you find that Noam Chomsky interview???
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel :)

[Dallandra]

wow that is really powerful!

[jcldragon]

I got the Noam Chomsky interview & the other stuff from the OIT forum. That letter above, I lifted from Rev Ray's Lothlorien message board.

[soul broken 9]

<center>i had the opportunity to sign the petition
a long time ago.. i hope that everyone does..;o</center>

[Moonsister42]

http://www.care2.com/relief/

[Dallandra]

I read this on www.indymedia.org (the only place to go for news) and I just had to share.

Guide to differences between U.S. Government and Terrorists
by Daniel Solnit, Dissident Voice 12:03pm Sat Oct 13 '01


Confused? Having difficulty telling the good guys from the bad guys?
Use this handy Guide to differences between Terrorists and the U.S.
Government:

TERRORISTS:
Supposed leader is the spoiled son of a powerful politician, from extremely
wealthy oil family
US GOVERNMENT:
Supposed leader is the spoiled son of a powerful politician, from extremely
wealthy oil family

TERRORISTS:
Leader has declared a holy war ('Jihad') against his 'enemies'; believes
any nation not with him is against him; believes god is on his side, and
that any means are justified.
US GOVERNMENT:
Leader has declared a holy war ('Crusade') against his 'enemies'; believes
any nation not with him is against him; believes god is on his side, and
that any means are justified.

TERRORISTS:
Supported by extreme fundamentalist religious leaders who preach hatred,
intolerance, subjugation of women, and persecution of non-believers
US GOVERNMENT:
Supported by extreme fundamentalist religious leaders who preach hatred,
intolerance, subjugation of women, and persecution of non-believers

TERRORISTS:
Leadership was not elected by a majority of the people in a free and fair
democratic election
US GOVERNMENT:
Leadership was not elected by a majority of the people in a free and fair
democratic election

TERRORISTS:
Kills thousands of innocent civilians, some of them children, in cold
blooded bombings
US GOVERNMENT:
Kills (tens of) thousands of innocent civilians, some of them children, in
cold blooded bombings

TERRORISTS:
Operates through clandestine organization (al Qaeda) with agents in many
countries; uses bombing, assassination, other terrorist tactics
US GOVERNMENT:
Operates through clandestine organization (CIA) with agents in many
countries; uses bombing, assassination, other terrorist tactics

TERRORISTS:
Using war as pretext to clamp down on dissent and undermine civil liberties
US GOVERNMENT:
Using war as pretext to clamp down on dissent and undermine civil liberties

TERRORISTS:
Weapon of choice: a three-dollar box cutter
US GOVERNMENT:
Weapon of choice: a billion-dollar B1 bomber

[KV]

Boy oh boy did that put it in some kind of perspective huh? Very interesting! Of course even though I do agree that there are many similarities there are also incredible differences as well....and that does need to be noted :) Thanks for posting that Dallandra!
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[Tirgana]

Gee if I had realized it was so important for me to participate in the Crusades I would have hung around for the first round....they didn't have to do another rematch on my account. How'bout we call this whole thing a draw...and everyone peacefully go home.
ok...works for me!
Tirgana:g

[Jezebelle]

I just read this quote and wanted to get you all's perspective on it. I find it (and much of what he says) rather ridiculous. The modern world's symbol of paganism?!?

How can our modern, technological advances be a symbol of paganism which is a very old, sacred form of worship??

Im confused by this. I wanted to dissect it and I really wanted some opinions........ thoughts?

[Gentian]

Well, for one, this is a translation into English. He probably has little conception of what we think of as "paganism." Even people in the U.S. are ignorant on this topic, and we live in a relatively open society with free access to information.

He probably means we're idolators. And Osama's definition of "idolatry" is very broad. :r My understanding is that he thinks that when we, for example, watch TV, or even look at photographs, we are worshipping false gods.

This, of course, makes him a hypocrite, as he habitually arranges for himself to be photographed. He appears in training and recruitment videos for his terrorist training camps--does he wish them to make an idol of him?

(Probably.)

:r

[Jezebelle]

My understanding is that he thinks that when we, for example, watch TV, or even look at photographs, we are worshipping false gods.

wow, very interesting...... so he is, all by himself, making himself to be a false god. I wonder if he is truly aware of his own deceits, ya know? I mean - does he notice his own contradictions? Or does he really think he's doing right by Allah?

I didnt think about the whole translation thing too. You're probably right. I was just so surprised to see the word "pagan" coming out of his mouth.....

I truly am curious about this man. Not *why* he's doing this..... but how he sleeps at night. Is he doing it for mass control? To keep women down? To get things to return back they way they were *briefly* hundreds of years ago? Does he really think he can turn back time with such extreme violence? How DOES he sleep at night with this on his conscious????

Or has he fooled even himself........

[Gentian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bansheei


wow, very interesting...... so he is, all by himself, making himself to be a false god. I wonder if he is truly aware of his own deceits, ya know? I mean - does he notice his own contradictions? Or does he really think he's doing right by Allah?

He was a very wealthy, privileged child, so it's not like he hasn't had access to education. I know he was even at Oxford for a while. Self-delusion is a very powerful force.

However, I sense that he is not anywhere as religious as he portrays himself to be. Hence the myriad contradictions. He is doing this for some other purpose, and exploiting his religion to those ends. I don't know what that purpose is, though. This is where people generally bring in the concept of "Evil." I suppose that's what it must be.

I didnt think about the whole translation thing too. You're probably right. I was just so surprised to see the word "pagan" coming out of his mouth.....

I know, me too. :) When I heard it, my first reaction was, "Ooooh, I wish!"

But I don't think we're even on his radar screen. Which is good for our immediate safety, as I don't think he'd approve. But...he can go fuck himself.

[IrisMagpie]

I think he means "pagan" in the "non-christian, non-jewish, non-islamic" sense. As in idol worshipers, non-monotheistic, non-moral, etc. All the old definitions of the word.

[KV]

Originally posted by IrisMagpie
I think he means "pagan" in the "non-christian, non-jewish, non-islamic" sense. As in idol worshipers, non-monotheistic, non-moral, etc. All the old definitions of the word.

That's how I would translate his definition too Kara. I love this discussion though! Some really interesting ideas....I am so with you Gentian....bin Laden is not the religious man that he claims to be....I think he is incredibly hungry for power and wealth and that is where his motivation lies. What a sick individual he is to use his money to kill not only foreigners, but his own people and lay it all on Allah's word...makes me want to punch him in the nose and the nuts!
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[Rabbittmoon]

You are so right about him making himself out to be an idol Gentian. I think he is hiding behind allah, thats all. Hiding behind religion to give him the power to do terrible things for his own gratification. Like a cult.

[jcldragon]

His aura is a total black. His objective is to spark a world war, which will destroy billions of people, perhaps the planet itself.

[Gentian]

Originally posted by jcldragon
His aura is a total black. His objective is to spark a world war, which will destroy billions of people, perhaps the planet itself.

I couldn't agree more.

I don't understand what makes someone that utterly evil. I understand hurt and anger and even hate...but only up to a point.

I feel like inside everyone there is some sort of "limit" or rock bottom where we just stop and say: "This is wrong." For someone not to have anything like that is horrifying. I don't know where it comes from.

Maybe evil that deep is a form of insanity. Like when a dog goes crazy and just starts biting people...

[KV]

Originally posted by Gentian
I don't understand what makes someone that utterly evil. I understand hurt and anger and even hate...but only up to a point.

I feel like inside everyone there is some sort of "limit" or rock bottom where we just stop and say: "This is wrong." For someone not to have anything like that is horrifying. I don't know where it comes from.


Well....welcome to the wild and crazy world of personality development and from where it comes! Keep all limbs inside the car while it is moving and enjoy the ride! Man....it is the age old question of nature and nurture! Where does it come from? How is it developed? How do people like Hitler and bin Laden get to this point? There are a katrillion theories that work....but still nobody really knows....one of those incredibly bizarre mysteries that we humans encompass!
XOXOXO
love
Rachel

[jcldragon]

I remember that long ago, I read in the teachings of my guru, Doreal, that there were Rebel Souls or Nephanti, powerful entities attuned to the darkness, whose purpose is to accumulate power for the purpose of wreaking havoc & destruction. Far in the future, when this universe collapses into a tremendous black hole from which a new universe on a higher plane will be created, these Rebel Souls will be left behind , ... again... to manefest into a new universe that will be formed behind us...

[KV]

Wow JC...that is some pretty powerful stuff there! I like that idea actually :)
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[Jezebelle]

jlcdragon - are you saying that these souls are always one plane behind us? That Hitler and Bin Laden are actually old souls left over from the last universe?

I dont know how these people can think what they are doing is right either. And Im a psychologist! But in cases of such evil, narrowmindedness and total selfishness - no amount of psychology can explain it.

I hardly think its cuz his mother didnt love him enough. I doubt even if its biology. Its a total lust for power. He has found a way to make others do his deeds. Religous leaders from Koresh to Manson seem to find the whole thing intoxicating. But this guy....... my GOD.

The mere fact that he applauds the loss of life at WTC is just shocking.

I wonder what other evil doers would say... like Tim McVeigh or Hitler.... how would they feel about this latest act of hatred?

[KV]

Originally posted by Bansheei

I wonder what other evil doers would say... like Tim McVeigh or Hitler.... how would they feel about this latest act of hatred?

Well I don't know what they would think...obviously...hahaha....but they were all defending their own beliefs and ideologies. So their reactions would be different most def. I think Hitler and bin Laden are very similar in that they were/are both greedy for power and used something sacred as a front to mask their real intentions...they needed desperate people and a common enemy that they felt were threats to their own power....Tim McVeigh used a different front....he was just pissed because he did not feel he got what he was entitled to get as an American Citizen...he felt slighted and so his act was more about revenge I think....all three men were brutal killers and are "evil" but I do think there are ways in which their own personalities and their environments shaped their behavior....or maybe not....see it is so hard....there is no way of telling what could spark this kind of ideology...it is scary.

XOXOXO
Love
Rachel

[jcldragon]

Doreal was speaking about the progession of Spiritual evolution within the life cycle of a universe, but he also mentioned a similar process that occurs on a planetary level. He said that when the mass of people on a planet attain Enlightenment, that those who have not progressed that far, can no longer reincarnate on that planet, that they have to continue their Spiritual evolution elsewhere, on a less evolved planet.

The Earth has been such a "prison world" for a long time, but we have been growing. Most of the people here, would prefer to deal with their own problems & concerns than to go out on a cause against somebody else. If it were not for the activities of a few rebel souls, almost everybody else here would soon be seeking Enlightenment. So it occurs to me that if those of us who are on the Path, would pool our energies, we could create a protection spell that would block the most barbaric & malevolent souls from returning here. Certainly all the Buddhists on this planet are already doing this indirectly, simply by meditating.

[KV]

Originally posted by jcldragon
So it occurs to me that if those of us who are on the Path, would pool our energies, we could create a protection spell that would block the most barbaric & malevolent souls from returning here. Certainly all the Buddhists on this planet are already doing this indirectly, simply by meditating.

I'm down with that! There is a similar thread on the Lothlorien discussion board as well where a whole bunch of people are trying to get together and pool energies and ward off those negative energies of all those malevolent souls that you are speaking about JC.
We should all plan to do that together...this board I mean....maybe even in conjunction with the Lothlorien board! That would be really wonderful!
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel :)

[Gentian]

Originally posted by jcldragon
Doreal was speaking about the progession of Spiritual evolution within the life cycle of a universe, but he also mentioned a similar process that occurs on a planetary level. He said that when the mass of people on a planet attain Enlightenment, that those who have not progressed that far, can no longer reincarnate on that planet, that they have to continue their Spiritual evolution elsewhere, on a less evolved planet.

That is utterly fascinating. I've never heard anything quite like it before.

But--and this sounds like a joke, but I don't mean it as such--what do all those enlightened people do with their time, on a planet all by themselves?


The Earth has been such a "prison world" for a long time, but we have been growing.

That makes a lot of sense to me on an intuitive level. I'll have to give that idea some more thought.

[jcldragon]

Originally posted by Gentian But--and this sounds like a joke, but I don't mean it as such--what do all those enlightened people do with their time, on a planet all by themselves?[/B]

You can kind of answer that question for yourself. What would you be doing, if you were Enlightened? Then imagine a place where that was average....

[Gentian]

Originally posted by jcldragon


You can kind of answer that question for yourself. What would you be doing, if you were Enlightened? Then imagine a place where that was average....

For sure, I'd be flying around. ;o

But it seems too much like a world without shadow...that's why I was thinking it might be a little boring. Make sense?

[jcldragon]

Originally posted by Gentian
But it seems too much like a world without shadow...that's why I was thinking it might be a little boring. Make sense?

All Enlightened beings, and those souls close to attaining Enlightenment, are reknown for being tuned in to the Divine Sense of Humor. A planetful of them would be quite the party... combined with great works of art & music, and some sober, scholarly research projects. Boredom would be impossible (also against the law :i )....

[Rabbittmoon]

I am so sorry about your loss.
My heart goes out to you & your friends.

That is a most bizzare story.
The article doesnt say anything about how their bodies were found or anything- so I think its hard for me to draw any real conclusions here.
But I agree, something is fishy.
Keep us updated if you will, I want to follow this. Surely the will release further information on the deaths.
If the pagan community has to stand up & keep that little backwards town in check, we will do that.
You can count me in.
<HR>
And someone needs to tell them that it doesnt matter if they were "real practitioners" or not. & It doesnt matter how much "occult" stuff they had in their house. And the weapons- Im thinking were probably athames. If they were guns, they wouldve said guns.
If they found 2 Christian bodies they wouldnt be saying, "We found 2 bibles & other unidentified things that could not relate to Christmas."
Havent they ever heard of freedom of religion?

[KV]

Ohhhh boy I am just so sorry to hear about this. What a terrible loss. And I agree that the article is so very one sided. I cannot make any judgments either for the same reason that Brooke mentioned...there is simply just not enough in the article. I absolutely cannot stand it when they make a big deal of "occult" items when it comes to a death...you are so right Brooke if they were Christian OR even if they were atheist none of that would even be mentioned...it really angers me....this is our religion and I HATE it when it is used to satisfy the morbid curiosity and entertainment of others...I am glad that they at least had some quotes from neighbors that said they were good, peaceful people...what newspaper is that from? I want to write a letter!
XOXOXO
Love
Rachel :)

[IrisMagpie]

It doesn't mention a cause of death at all. What, were their throats slit? Did they find a weapon with blood on it? It does sound like the police are doing some shifty police work. Sounds like they don't know what killed them. Personally, I'd check out this "odor" that the article talked about. If it drove the police out of the apartment for a whole day, perhaps that had something to do with it....

[Rabbittmoon]

I know that odor thing is so bizarre.

[sheanight]

not to screw up Samhain for us, but here is something I think you might all want to take a listen to when you get some time okies;) :

Former New York Times Balkans Bureau Chief and Middle East Bureau Chief, Hedges is currently a correspondent for that paper. In the past few weeks, he’s been covering terrorist cells in France and Belgium. He recently published a piece in Harper’s Magazine called "A Gaza Diary." He lives in New York.

http://freshair.npr.org/dayFA.cfm?todayDate=current

Peace and Love Y'all,
shea

[AshBunny]

Sky News, a big 24 hour news channel here in the UK, are reporting a story in which police officers from London's Metropolitan Police are going to South Africa in some hope that it will help them with a case they're working on.

It seems that a torso of a young boy, which turned up in the Thames river last year, may have been the result of some kind of "ritual" murder (according to the police)

If this isn't bad enough, they're off to South Africa to talk to the "only police force in the world with a specialist section dealing with Witchcraft" (as reported by Sky News)

The words "Ritual Abuse" and "Witchcraft" have now cropped up several times in the last two hours when reporting on the above mentioned news item.

I'm going to cross-post this to the other (new?) Pagan forum here, along with the email address if you wish to complain to Sky News you can email: news@sky.com

If you've seen the news items yourself, or if you now choose to watch them and then complain, you can fill in an online form at the ITC (Independent Television Commission, the uk's tv regulator) - but only if you've actually watch it.

(edit: here is the URL for complaining to the ITC)
http://www.itc.org.uk/how_can_we_help/complain/prog_complaint_form.asp

Kindest Regards,
--
ash

[witchfinder general]

Ash, check out the other forum - I replied there.

[jcldragon]

Protesters see power of evil in Wicca class

By Dave Richardson
Times Herald-Record
drichardson@th-record.com

Warwick ? When Isaac Bonewits put up fliers around town advertising a class on Wicca, he didn't think it was a big deal.
To Bonewits ? an ordained Druid priest and expert on all things pagan ? Wicca, an ancient, nature-based belief system akin to what many today call witchcraft, is a perfectly normal part of everyday life.
But to many Christians, Wicca represents something they see as evil, something that goes contrary to everything they've been taught by their own religion.
Bonewits put up his fliers and showed up for the first night of his class, held April 17 at the Book Store, a main-street staple in Warwick. But others showed up, too ? a handful of Christian protesters, who stood in front of the store making their views on the subject clear to all.
Witnesses said the group did not block the doorway or physically stop anyone from entering. But Bonewits said the display was daunting.
"They were actively intimidating people; that's the only way I can describe it," Bonewits said.
Bonewits said he saw at least one potential attendee deterred by the group, though others came inside despite the protest.
Shortly after the incident, Bonewits said he was asked by the store's owner, Michael McDermott, to find an alternate location for the class.
McDermott declined to comment on the incident.
The Rev. Thomas Burns, of St. Stephen's Roman Catholic Church, said as soon as he and other local clergy heard about the class, they decided to speak out against it.
"It's definitely antagonistic to what we believe," Burns said, calling Wicca's reverence of nature and natural forces a dangerous distraction.
"From our faith's perspective, when you are not worshipping God, but are worshipping other things instead, that's evil," Burns said. "We believe in the power of evil in our world. There are so many ways to fall into it."
Bonewits ? who emphasized Wiccans don't even believe in Satan, let alone worship him ? said he was upset, but not necessarily surprised, by the reaction to his class.
"There are still plenty of people today who will actively persecute members of alternative religions," Bonewits said. "I always thought if you were secure in your religious beliefs, you wouldn't be worried about what others believe."
Meanwhile, the class will continue at an alternate location that Bonewits did not want publicized. He said anyone is welcome.
"If they had asked me, I would have invited the local pastors to attend," Bonewits said.

For information about Isaac Bonewits' Wicca class, e-mail him at bonewits@warwick.net

[jcldragon]

We, the undersigned, are outraged at the refusal of a request to list a Pagan/Wiccan Study Group - Magickal Moon in the Salisbury Post, which is located in Salisbury, North Carolina.
under is a link to this petition
for any here woh want to help and be heard


http://www.petitiononline.com/MMoon/

[jcldragon]

Some thoughts on the Israel/Palestinian situation, by a Jewish woman who became a Pagan.

http://www.starhawk.org/israel-palestine.html

[pyrrha]

On Summer Solstice, PUC will host the second annual I AM post card campaign, to educate our elected officials in Washington that Pagans are among their voters in every district in the USA. The post cards are to state clearly and simply;

"I am a Pagan ----fill in the blank---" (An example; Mother, chef, police officer, teacher, artist, little league coach.) These cards should be local attraction pictures, to show our presence in all states. They should be sent in time to reach Washington on the Summer Solstice, the same as last year, when we estimated that tens of thousands of post cards from Pagans reached our capitol, making a grand impact on the officials who received them. We want to improve on those numbers this year for the IAM2 campaign. setting the stage for a even more far reaching IAM3 in 2003.

We are inviting the whole Pagan community to join with PUC in thisimportant campaign of political activism in the name of the growing Pagan rights movement. PUC hopes Pagans will see this campaign as invaluable work, following in the footsteps of honorable groups such as WARD, Circle Network, and Witchvox, in furthering the awareness and acceptance of Paganism. If all of us join together in these battles for our equal rights and deserved respect, then we shall not fail. United we stand! Be loud, be proud!

So Vote It be!

The President's Address is...

President George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

You may find your US Senator's addresses at...
http://www.senate.gov/senators/

You may find your US Representative's addresses at...
http://www.house.gov/house/

Complete details on I AM 2 can be found at...
http://www.paganunitycampaign.org/iam/

The Pagan Bill Of Rights can be found at...
http://www.paganunitycampaign.org/pbor.html

Thanks for your help! Medicine Heart

[jcldragon]

Plant a Tree is the Brazilian Rainforest!

www.tree4life.com

[jcldragon]

Humanity exists across a wide spectrum of consciousness, from Enlightened to those who seek to drag us all into darkness. The distribution is exactly like the Probability curve. Depending upon where you fall on that spectrum, you will perceive events in one way or another, and react accordingly. Thus, every possible reaction to events will be persued by somebody somewhere. Through the process of reincarnation, people have clustered in areas where what is happening there matches the Karma they have created. Terrible things are coming, and wonderful things are coming. The flow of information around the whole has never been at a greater level. And it is becoming close to impossible to ignore all that we have been, all of what we are, & what we could be.

[jcldragon]

Fill your mind with fear, & you will attract fearful things. Fill your mind with hate, & your life will be filled with hateful things. Live your life in paranoia, and your world will shrink to the lowest common denominator.

Fill your mind with courage, and you will have the strength to go on. Fill your mind with Love, and the Universe will embrace you. Live your life to the fullest, and it will mean something.

[Natha Namia]

Originally posted by jcldragon
Fill your mind with fear, & you will attract fearful things. Fill your mind with hate, & your life will be filled with hateful things. Live your life in paranoia, and your world will shrink to the lowest common denominator.

Fill your mind with courage, and you will have the strength to go on. Fill your mind with Love, and the Universe will embrace you. Live your life to the fullest, and it will mean something.

Thank you--I really need to read things like that these days. :)

[jcldragon]

Originally posted by Sweet Fat Man
Published on Monday, September 9, 2002 in the Guardian/UK

Drain the Swamp and There Will Be No More Mosquitoes

By attacking Iraq, the US will invite a new wave of terrorist
attacks

by Noam Chomsky

September 11 shocked many Americans into an awareness that they
had better pay much closer attention to what the US government
does in the world and how it is perceived. Many issues have been
opened for discussion that were not on the agenda before. That's
all to the good.

It is also the merest sanity, if we hope to reduce the likelihood
of future atrocities. It may be comforting to pretend that our
enemies "hate our freedoms," as President Bush stated, but it is
hardly wise to ignore the real world, which conveys different
lessons.

The president is not the first to ask: "Why do they hate us?" In
a staff discussion 44 years ago, President Eisenhower described
"the campaign of hatred against us , not by
the governments but by the people". His National Security Council
outlined the basic reasons: the US supports corrupt and
oppressive governments and is "opposing political or economic
progress" because of its interest in controlling the oil
resources of the region.

Post-September 11 surveys in the Arab world reveal that the same
reasons hold today, compounded with resentment over specific
policies. Strikingly, that is even true of privileged,
western-oriented sectors in the region.

To cite just one recent example: in the August 1 issue of Far
Eastern Economic Review, the internationally recognized regional
specialist Ahmed Rashid writes that in Pakistan "there is growing
anger that US support is allowing [Musharraf's] military regime
to delay the promise of democracy".

Today we do ourselves few favors by choosing to believe that
"they hate us" and "hate our freedoms". On the contrary, these
are attitudes of people who like Americans and admire much about
the US, including its freedoms. What they hate is official
policies that deny them the freedoms to which they too aspire.

For such reasons, the post-September 11 rantings of Osama bin
Laden - for example, about US support for corrupt and brutal
regimes, or about the US "invasion" of Saudi Arabia - have a
certain resonance, even among those who despise and fear him.
From resentment, anger and frustration, terrorist bands hope to
draw support and recruits.

We should also be aware that much of the world regards Washington
as a terrorist regime. In recent years, the US has taken or
backed actions in Colombia, Nicaragua, Panama, Sudan and Turkey,
to name a few, that meet official US definitions of "terrorism" -
that is, when Americans apply the term to enemies.

In the most sober establishment journal, Foreign Affairs, Samuel
Huntington wrote in 1999: "While the US regularly denounces
various countries as 'rogue states,' in the eyes of many
countries it is becoming the rogue superpower ... the single
greatest external threat to their societies."

Such perceptions are not changed by the fact that, on September
11, for the first time, a western country was subjected on home
soil to a horrendous terrorist attack of a kind all too familiar
to victims of western power. The attack goes far beyond what's
sometimes called the "retail terror" of the IRA, FLN or Red
Brigades.

The September 11 terrorism elicited harsh condemnation throughout
the world and an outpouring of sympathy for the innocent victims.
But with qualifications.

An international Gallup poll in late September found little
support for "a military attack" by the US in Afghanistan. In
Latin America, the region with the most experience of US
intervention, support ranged from 2% in Mexico to 16% in Panama.

The current "campaign of hatred" in the Arab world is, of course,
also fueled by US policies toward Israel-Palestine and Iraq. The
US has provided the crucial support for Israel's harsh military
occupation, now in its 35th year.

One way for the US to lessen Israeli-Palestinian tensions would
be to stop refusing to join the long-standing international
consensus that calls for recognition of the right of all states
in the region to live in peace and security, including a
Palestinian state in the currently occupied territories (perhaps
with minor and mutual border adjustments).

In Iraq, a decade of harsh sanctions under US pressure has
strengthened Saddam Hussein while leading to the death of
hundreds of thousands of Iraqis - perhaps more people "than have
been slain by all so-called weapons of mass destruction
throughout history", military analysts John and Karl Mueller
wrote in Foreign Affairs in 1999.

Washington's present justifications to attack Iraq have far less
credibility than when President Bush Sr. was welcoming Saddam as
an ally and a trading partner after he had committed his worst
brutalities - as in Halabja, where Iraq attacked Kurds with
poison gas in 1988. At the time, the murderer Saddam was more
dangerous than he is today.

As for a US attack against Iraq, no one, including Donald
Rumsfeld, can realistically guess the possible costs and
consequences. Radical Islamist extremists surely hope that an
attack on Iraq will kill many people and destroy much of the
country, providing recruits for terrorist actions.

They presumably also welcome the "Bush doctrine" that proclaims
the right of attack against potential threats, which are
virtually limitless. The president has announced: "There's no
telling how many wars it will take to secure freedom in the
homeland." That's true.

Threats are everywhere, even at home. The prescription for
endless war poses a far greater danger to Americans than
perceived enemies do, for reasons the terrorist organizations
understand very well.

Twenty years ago, the former head of Israeli military
intelligence, Yehoshaphat Harkabi, also a leading Arabist, made a
point that still holds true. "To offer an honorable solution to
the Palestinians respecting their right to self-determination:
that is the solution of the problem of terrorism," he said. "When
the swamp disappears, there will be no more mosquitoes."

At the time, Israel enjoyed the virtual immunity from retaliation
within the occupied territories that lasted until very recently.
But Harkabi's warning was apt, and the lesson applies more
generally.

Well before September 11 it was understood that with modern
technology, the rich and powerful will lose their near monopoly
of the means of violence and can expect to suffer atrocities on
home soil.

If we insist on creating more swamps, there will be more
mosquitoes, with awesome capacity for destruction.

If we devote our resources to draining the swamps, addressing the
roots of the "campaigns of hatred", we can not only reduce the
threats we face but also live up to ideals that we profess and
that are not beyond reach if we choose to take them seriously.

[i]Noam Chomsky is professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology and author of the US bestseller 9-11
chomsky@MIT.edu

© Noam Chomsky/New York Times Syndicate

http://commondreams.org/views02/0909-02.htm

[jcldragon]

RALPH REED AND THE SIX MIND-TOOLS

by Rev. Ed Hubbard

Ralph Reed is the most dedicated Christian Strategist in the country, working closely with the Religious Right and the current elections. He writes and formulates policies on elections and issues for Christian Organizations and Government Officials. And his decisions comes with millions of dollars of Christian Coalition Special Interest Dollars.

Who is Ralph Reed? Ralph Reed is the protege of Pat Robertson. Brought on as a director of the Christian Coalition, being a position nominally abandoned by Pat Robertson during his presidential campaign, Ralph Reed has become the chief advocate of the Religious Christian Community. Currently, he is a campaign consultant to George W. Bush, and openly speaks out about the need to be a religious advocate. Ralph has moved out of pure religious organizations to become director of Century Strategies http://www.censtrat.com, which allows him to work fully in the political field without constraints.

Why am I mentioning Ralph Reed? Because he allegedly commissioned a report recently, on laws pertaining to Witchcraft throughout the United States for the purpose of incremental enforcement of laws on the federal basis. Further, according to sources seeks to denounce Witchcraft as a legal religion through the courts if necessary. He is a long term strategist, and he is only 38 years old. And he sees the Pagan Community as a potential voting issue and media attention attractor. He is just waiting for the right moment and then he will use us to further his cause. Never forget, George Bush Jr. has made promises to eliminate Wicca from the Military, as President. Mr. Reed would assure Bush carries out that promise. I mention him know those who would take from you your rights in the name of God.

How will he do it? Here are the six mind-tools used by social propagandists, political consultants, and governmental officials use to incite the public.

These are the tools of the Media War.

Mind-tool One is Atrocity Allegations. In it's most common form, it is the accusal of ritual murder, infanticide, rape, sexual depravity, mass murder and so on. This can go deeper, with unfounded and untrue statements as well as true statements of small numbers of people, left to fester. Remember, an Atrocity accusation can even be as simple as thewear black because they are afraid of the light, as long as it isolates the community member.

Mind-tool Two is Hyperbolic Inflation of the Stakes. This recently took form in Bosnia when NATO stated if we do not stop Serbia we will have another Hitler, and fight a larger war. For us, If children are allowed to wear Pentagrams soon all our children will be. Further, If children are allowed to practice Wicca then they will become involved with *put you own derogatory here*.

These first two mind-tools create a powerful argument, no matter how true or false. Simply put, atrocity and Hyperbolic inflation assures that even if you are not sure it is true, you don't dare defend them in case it is true, and you certainly don't become involved.

The Third mind-tool is Demonetization and Dehumanization. In every conflict, the enemy must not have a human face. Broad brushes are used to slander and deprive human feelings for the attacked, otherwise onewould have to consider them as individuals. For Wiccans it was Satan Worship, but lately we are all said to be nudists and we do not believe in God or State.


The fourth mind-tool is Polarization, "Those not for us are against Us." Simple and is the basis for all manner of fights.

The Fifth mind-tool is the Claim of Divine Sanction, which frames all arguments, out of the human context and instead places it on God, Allah, or some other authority in charge of the action. Further the power to forgive for any excess of zeal is gained. This assures no matter how much one would feel the action is wrong, the person committing it is secure because God told them to do it.

The Sixth mind-tool is Meta-proganda, and the most powerful. This discredits the other sides propaganda not by challenging the veracity of a single story, but by repeating holes and mistakes on the whole argument and discredit everything coming from the enemy. The aim is to produce wholesale disbelief and close doors to redress.

Being aware of the tools being used by Ralph Reed and other consultants, "Spiritual Warriors", and "Prayer Soldiers", we will be able to understand how they reached their world-view and prepare our statements accordingly. After all, Ralph Reed has already begun.


------------------------------------------------------
Permission Granted to Forward this
Original Daily Goddess News Article

[All Seeing Eye]

Sherman Skolnick is a well known investigative reporter and his
breaking news stories usually turn out to be true.

I have also been hearing reports on short wave radio from Europe (that
is not controlled like All of our US media) that the following story is
likely to be correct.

The story in a few words is George Bush is Bi-Sexual and has had the
same man friend since college and the National Enquirer (American Media)
was just about to release the story and photos to prove it when the
photo editor was killed and the building was closed down due to being
infected with Anthrax !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subject: Sherman Skolnick's Report
----------------------------------------------

http://www.skolnicksreport.com/ootar17.html

Sherman H. Skolnick
Email: skolnick@ameritech.net
"THE OVERTHROW OF THE AMERICAN REPUBLIC",
Part 17
by Sherman H. Skolnick 9/11/02
FBI SOUGHT CLAMP ON BUSH STORIES
White House and network reporters as well as U.S.-based foreign
journalists are using national security leaks to pursue proposed stories
about George W. Bush's reputed relationship with a male sex-mate since
his college days up to now. So contends the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, in a Justice Department request to the Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Act secret court that met in sound-proof
facilities in the Justice Department Building, Washington, D.C.
The Bush reputed male sex-mate details have enabled Red China, perceived
by some as a sworn enemy of the U.S., and others reportedly to blackmail
or otherwise unlawfully compromise the current occupant and resident of
the White House, causing the disclosure of U.S. industrial, financial,
and military secrets. Various reporters, including those of British
Broadcasting Company, BBC, and Canadian Broadcasting Company, CBC, have,
on their own, verified and corroborated the exclusive stories by this
reporter as to the Bush relationship causing a breach itself by Bush of
national security.
The FBI/Justice requests to the secret court acting as a type of U.S.
District Court under FISA, included
[1] that the FBI/Justice Department be empowered and authorized to use
all means necessary to surveil the reporters, foreign and domestic,
working on the story;
[2] that the FBI/Justice Department be authorized and empowered as to
the War Powers, or similar provisions, to forcibly or otherwise stop the
publishing and electronic transmission of any stories or pictures
relating to George W. Bush in a Skull & Bones Society satanic ritual
coffin engaging in homosexual acts with his reputed male sex-mate.
The controller of satellites, the U.S. National Reconnaissance Office,
NRO, to be ordered to block and obstruct all satellite transmissions of
related news and pictures and graphics.
[3] That the FBI/Justice Department be authorized and empowered to block
by forcible and other means any print or electronic news dissemination
mentioning of the photo editor, Robert Stevens, of American Media, Inc.,
Boca Raton, Florida; of Stevens having been murdered by anthrax-by-mail,
on or about September, 2001, through the aid, complicity, and connivance
of U.S. Government civil/military covert operatives. And any mentioning
or dissemination by news and other outlets, that the FBI by closing down
the American Media, Inc. headquarters up to date, was thus blocking
retrieval of reported pictures and supporting authentication as to
George W. Bush in a coffin engaging as a proposed new member of the
Skull & Bones Society, in a satanic ritual, in homosexual acts with his
reputed male sex-mate who has numerous times visited Bush since that
time; such rituals having been conducted at a building called "The
Tomb", at Yale University.
[4] That the FBI/Justice Department be authorized and empowered to block
phone, wire and wireless data, and other transmissions including
microwave, between U.S.-based foreign journalists and their out-of-U.S.
offices. And to block and obstruct, by means not disclosed to persons
involved, of phone calls, data transmissions, and such, from such
out-of-U.S. offices into the U.S. And to block phone calls, data
transmission, and such, from outside the U.S. to U.S. phones and
instruments used by reputed sources of data as to the Bush male sex-mate
stories and pictures and authentications, and their national security
implications.
[5] That the FBI/Justice Department, without such authorizations to be
disclosed, to be authorized and empowered to shut down websites and
other computer-linked and computer-generated means, used to disseminate
such stories and exchanges of data, pictures, and graphics.
The secret court, as a form of U.S. District Court, under FISA, granted
such requests by the FBI/Justice Department. The orders of the secret
court went into effect on September 9 and 10, 2002. Thereafter, however,
their Court orders were in part affirmed and in part reversed and/or
vacated, by the secret Appeals Court provided for under the Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Act. The secret Appeals Court meets in
sound-proof facilities in Baltimore, Maryland and their appeals decision
was not publicly disclosed.
Who says there is no secret political police, no Gestapo, in the United
States?
More coming.... Stay tuned.

[havic]

scary stuff...what is scarier is that i tried to do a search for any other information regarding this and came up with: nothing. not one other thing. odd..... :t

[All Seeing Eye]

That is the scariest part. Does it make you think? Just check out the Scull&Crossbones. Then grab your Cross, and pray.

[jcldragon]

I've bookmarked Sherman Skolnick's website, since it seems to cover some areas that I am already investigating. I'll also do some Searching to determine his sources & veracity, always a good practice, when doing investigative work...

[All Seeing Eye]

for more information on this subject, go to

http://www.atforumz.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=154729

[Ycon]

The point here is that we have monsters running this country. They are freemasons, scull & bones satanic group. The signs are in your face, just take a closer look. The over head view of Washington DC, is full of satanic symbols. Your currency, especially the $20 bill, when folded, shows the buring twin towers, this is not a coincidence see this page http://www.makecashonline.com/20bill.htm

The anthrax attacks were not done by terrorist from other countries, it was done by our own government/CIA

The WTC Attack was planned

The Afghanestan War was planned

The War soon to come in Iraq, was planned

We need to wake up and stop this madness

Help spread the word, Start Talking

[boundless]

I haven't really formed a reaction to the Bush story there, yet....bear with me, it's about 5:30 am. LOL!

But as for the freemasons, that's bullshit. My father was a freemason, etc...I can guarantee you they aren't satanists. That's a common myth. When my father was active with them, they put on the Easter play every year.

[Kollins]

The word "satanist" isn't to be thrown around lightly . . . I've found it's a blanket term for "people we don't like" among more close-minded radicals.

As I understand it, real Satanists don't really believe in the Judeo-Christian 'devil.' It's all very confusing, and mildly interesting, I suppose.

So . . . yeah.

[jcldragon]

Chesterfield Gives Witch the Broom


Oct 04, 2002


Cyndi Simpson proudly calls herself a witch.

But despite what Chesterfield County officials think, the Wiccan priestess from Bon Air doesn't ride around on a broom. She prefers cultured pearls to black pointy hats and burgundy lipstick to green make-up.

Her religion, she said, is often misunderstood.

"We're everywhere," she said. "This is just the path I choose to follow. This is the person I am."

Eager to share her recognized faith with others, Simpson recently asked Chesterfield to add her name to the list of ministers and priests who give invocations at county meetings.

She thought giving an invocation would help rid the community of such misconceptions depicted in cartoons and Halloween costumes.

Wicca, she said, is a peaceful and nature-based religion that focuses on the changing cycles of the seasons and what meaning the seasons bring to people's lives. A core piece of Wicca is the recognition of the divine Feminine, the goddess, and seeing the goodness in all things.

She was baffled by Chesterfield's response.

"Based upon our review of Wicca, it is neo-pagan and invokes polytheistic, pre-Christian deities," Steven L. Micas, the county's attorney, wrote in a letter addressed to Simpson. "Accordingly, we cannot honor your request."

Simpson said the county is biased against her religion.

"I believe that this shows bias not only against my faith but against Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, Native Americans and any faith outside the Judeo-Christian religion. In a public area, government sponsored, we should all be welcome," she said.

Simpson said she would like to meet with county officials to allay their concerns.

"I am a proud citizen of Chesterfield County," she said. "I think these kinds of pub-lic practices should reflect the true religious diversity of Chesterfield County, and I am part of that. I would welcome a phone call from any of the county officials."

Supervisor Renny B. Humphrey, who represents the rural, heavily Baptist Matoaca District, said Simpson's request marked a first for her.

"I hope she's a good witch like Glinda," Humphrey remarked. Glinda is the Good Witch of the North in the movie "The Wizard of Oz."

"There is always Halloween," Humphrey said.

Board Chairman Kelly E. Miller said Simpson should not be allowed to lead an invocation.

"It is a mockery," he said. "It is not any religion I would subscribe to. There are certain places we ought not to go, and this is one of them."

Supervisor Edward B. Barber did not side with his fellow board members.

"How do you justify drawing a line to say this religious practice is acceptable to begin a board meeting but this one is not?" he said.

Kent Willis, executive director of the Virginia branch of the American Civil Liberties Union, said Chesterfield is making a big mistake.

"They are dead wrong," he said. "Wicca is a highly recognized religion. The military manual for chaplains includes instructions for people who are Wiccans."

He said the county's decision, as Micas described it, discriminates against all other religions that are not Judeo-Christian.

"Their reasoning is highly suspect," he said.