| @ f o r u m z |
| |||||||
| Register | Blogs | FAQ | Members List | Calendar | Mark Forums Read |
 |
| | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
 05-12-2004, 02:22 PM | #1 |
| Dragon of Gaia  Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 16,693  |  The Rumsfeld Doctrine http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...082866,00.html Rumsfeld Backs Iraq Interrogation Methods Wednesday May 12, 2004 7:01 PM By KEN GUGGENHEIM Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld defended military interrogation techniques in Iraq on Wednesday, rejecting complaints that they violate international rules and may endanger Americans taken prisoner. Rumsfeld told a Senate committee that Pentagon lawyers had approved methods such as sleep deprivation and dietary changes as well as rules permitting prisoners to be made to assume stress positions. Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, also noted that the rules require prisoners to be treated humanely at all times. But Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill. said some of the approved techniques ``go far beyond the Geneva Convention,'' a reference to international rules governing the treatment of prisoners of war. Rumsfeld spoke after two weeks of controversy provoked by photographs of American military personnel abusing prisoners in Iraq. An American was beheaded in a videotaped execution posted to a militant Islamic web site on Tuesday - a killing that captors said was revenge for the abuse of Iraqis in the Abu Ghraib prison. With lawmakers were immersed in the flap surrounding the pictures of abuse at the prison formally run by Saddam Hussein, President Bush declared there was ``no jsutification'' for the beheading of an American civilian in Iraq. He said the terrorists who executed Nicholas Berg wanted to ``shake'' America's resolve in bringing democracy to the war-torn country. The Defense Department is conducting multiple investigations into the abuse, and congressional hearings are under way, as well. At the insistence of lawmakers, the Pentagon arranged for members of Congress to view photos and videos during the day. They depict the abuse, including examples of prisoners forced into sexually humiliating poses. Durbin noted that one American GI was missing in Iraq, his whereabouts unknown. Given the circumstances, he asked Rumsfeld, ``wouldn't it help if there was clarity from you and from this administration that we would abide by the Geneva Convention when it comes to civilian and military detainees unequivocally?'' Expanding his question to include detainees in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, he asked whether such a declaration would ``also serve to help American prisoners'' held captive. Rumsfeld replied that the Geneva Convention applies to all prisoners held in Iraq, but not to those held in Guantanamo Bay, where detainees captured in the global war on terror are held. Any al-Qaida or Taliban personnel taken prisoner are to be treated consistent with the Geneva Convention, under a decision made by Bush, Rumsfeld added. He said the distinction is that the international rules govern wars between countries but not those involving groups such as al-Qaida. ``Terrorists don't comply with the laws of war. They go around killing innocent civilians,'' Rumsfeld added. A second Democrat, Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, said that a report issued in March by Human Rights Watch ``corroborated such things'' as sleep deprivation, prisoners kept naked in sleeping cells or forced to stand or kneel for hours. The report covers prisoners held in Afghanistan, he said, adding it ``appears to be exactly the same technique'' as was employed in Iraq. Rumsfeld and other Pentagon officials have said the abuses in Abu Ghraib were unauthorized actions taken by a handful of personnel, and Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who investigated the mistreatment, testified to that effect before a Senate committee on Tuesday. Half a world away, there were further repercussions. Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt announced that two more American soldiers have been ordered to stand trial in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal although no date for the courts-martial was set. Sgt. Javal Davis, 26, of Maryland and Staff Sgt. Ivan L. ``Chip'' Frederick II of Buckingham, Va., were ordered to undergo a general court-martial, Kimmitt said. Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits, of Hyndman, Pa., goes on trial May 19 before a special court martial, which cannot levy as severe a sentence as a general court-martial. Taguba told the Senate Armed Services Committee that military police who acted improperly did so ``of their own volition.'' But several senators questioned whether low-ranking soldiers would have created the sexually humiliating scenarios by themselves. ``It implies too much knowledge of what would be particularly humiliating to these Muslim prisoners,'' said Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine. ``And that is why, even though I do not yet have the evidence, I cannot help but suspect that others were involved, that military intelligence personnel were involved, or people further up the chain of command.'' Sen. Ben Nelson, D-Neb., challenged Taguba on his statement that Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who headed the 800th Military Police Brigade at the prison, bore responsibility for a breakdown in discipline that led to abuse. Taguba testified that orders were issued taking tactical control of the Abu Ghraib facility away from Karpinski and giving it to Col. Thomas M. Pappas, commander of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade. ``It was clear that he was directed to be the forward operating base commander there for security detainees and force protection,'' Taguba said. ``However, General Karpinski challenged that and she noted that in her recorded testimony.'' Taguba said the order placing Pappas in charge of prison policy where Karpinski's MPs worked created a confusing situation and was contrary to Army doctrine. Nonetheless, he found that Karpinski retained overall responsibility for the MPs in her brigade and assigned much of the blame for the abuse to inadequate leadership on her part. Asked to put in simple words how the abuses happened, Taguba said: ``Failure in leadership, sir, from the brigade commander on down. Lack of discipline, no training whatsoever and no supervision. Supervisory omission was rampant.'' Karpinski has been suspended and issued an official letter of admonishment in connection with the abuse. She has not been charged and has asserted other officers are attempting to make her a scapegoat. |
 |  |
| 05-12-2004, 02:42 PM | #2 |
| Dragon of Gaia Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 16,693 |  http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...075363,00.html Red Cross: Iraqi Abuse Widespread, Routine Monday May 10, 2004 10:16 PM By ALEXANDER G. HIGGINS Associated Press Writer GENEVA (AP) - Up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake, according to coalition intelligence officers cited in a Red Cross report disclosed Monday. It also said U.S. officers mistreated inmates at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison by keeping them naked in totally dark, empty cells. While many detainees were quickly released or no longer mistreated after interrogation, high-ranking officials in Saddam Hussein's government - including those listed on the U.S. military's deck of cards - were held for months in solitary confinement, The Associated Press has learned. The 24-page report by the International Committee of the Red Cross says abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers was broad and ``not individual acts,'' contrary to President Bush's contention that the mistreatment ``was the wrongdoing of a few.'' The report, confirmed by the Red Cross as authentic after it was published by The Wall Street Journal on Monday, says a military intelligence officer told the agency that abuse of prisoners by U.S. forces in Iraq is generally ``part of the process.'' Red Cross delegates saw U.S. military intelligence officers mistreating prisoners under interrogation at Abu Ghraib and collected allegations of abuse at more than 10 other detention facilities, including the military intelligence section at Camp Cropper at Baghdad International Airport and the Tikrit holding area, according to the report. The report, given to coalition forces in February, cites abuses - some ``tantamount to torture'' - including brutality, hooding, humiliation and threats of ``imminent execution.'' ``These methods of physical and psychological coercion were used by the military intelligence in a systematic way to gain confessions and extract information and other forms of cooperation from persons who had been arrested in connection with suspected security offenses or deemed to have an 'intelligence value.''' High-ranking officials were singled out for special treatment. ``Since June 2003 over a hundred 'high value detainees' have been held for nearly 23 hours a day in strict solitary confinement in small concrete cells devoid of daylight,'' said the report. ``Their continued internment several months after their arrest in strict solitary confinement constituted a serious violation of the third and fourth Geneva Conventions.'' It did not say who the detainees were, but an official who discussed the report with the Red Cross told AP they include some of the 55 top officials in Saddam's regime named in the deck of cards given to troops. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said detainees being held at Baghdad International Airport include many of the 44 ``deck of cards'' suspects already captured. It was not clear if Saddam was at the airport, but the Red Cross has said it visited him in coalition detention somewhere in Iraq last month. The high-value detainees were deprived of any contact with other inmates, ``guards, family members (except through Red Cross messages) and the rest of the outside world,'' the report said. Those whose investigations were near an end were said to be allowed to exercise together outside the cells for 20 minutes twice a day. The report said some coalition military intelligence officers estimated ``between 70 percent and 90 percent'' of the detainees in Iraq ``had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.'' The agency said arrests allegedly tended to follow a pattern. ``Arresting authorities entered houses usually after dark, breaking down doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members into one room under military guard while searching the rest of the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property,'' the report said. ``Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people,'' it said. ``Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles.'' In coalition prisons, ``ICRC delegates directly witnessed and documented a variety of methods used to secure the cooperation'' of the inmates ``with their interrogators.'' The Red Cross delegates saw how detainees were kept ``completely naked in totally empty concrete cells and in total darkness,'' the report said. ``Upon witnessing such cases, the ICRC interrupted its visits and requested an explanation from the authorities,'' the report said. ``The military intelligence officer in charge of the interrogation explained that this practice was 'part of the process.''' This apparently meant that detainees were progressively given clothing, bedding, lighting and other items in exchange for cooperation, it said. The report said the Red Cross found evidence supporting prisoners' allegations of other forms of abuse during arrest, initial detention and interrogation - including burns, bruises and other injuries. Once detainees were moved to regular prison facilities, the abuses typically stopped, it said. The report also cites widespread abuse of power and ill-treatment by Iraqi law enforcement officers under the coalition, including extorting money from people in their custody by threatening to hand them over to coalition authorities. Under the Geneva Conventions, the coalition is responsible for the Iraqi officers' behavior, the report said. The Red Cross has emphasized that the report was only a summary of its repeated attempts in person and in writing from March to November 2003 to get U.S. officials to stop abuses. Those earlier interventions by the Red Cross far preceded the Pentagon's decision to investigate after a low-ranking U.S. soldier stepped forward in January. The prisoner abuse erupted into an international scandal in recent days after the publication of disturbing photographs from Abu Ghraib. The Red Cross said it wanted to keep the report confidential because it saw U.S. officials making progress in responding to their complaints. Still, the American reaction was far slower than that of British officials, according to the report. It says the Red Cross informed the commander of British forces in April 2003 of ``ill-treatment'' by military intelligence personnel in interrogating Iraqis at Umm Qasr in southern Iraq. ``This intervention had the immediate effect to stop the systematic use of hoods and flexi-cuffs in the interrogation section of Umm Qasr,'' the report said. |
| | |
| 05-12-2004, 02:45 PM | #3 |
| back to days  Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 10,934   | so quintessential: ``Terrorists don't comply with the laws of war. They go around killing innocent civilians,'' Rumsfeld added. that statement, in and of itself, may be pretty much true. but we all know it's just the excuse for everything House of Bush. |
| | |
| 05-12-2004, 02:50 PM | #4 | |
| Phrique's Stalker  Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 2,332 | Quote:
| |
| | |
| 05-12-2004, 03:15 PM | #5 | |
| Dragon of Gaia Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 16,693 | Quote:
As for why there are rules, there are a number of good reasons why there should be rules. Civilized societies adhere to the Geneva Convention. If we do not adhere to the Geneva Convention, then we can't expect anyone else to either. The Rumsfeld Doctrine redefines the United States as a Rogue Nation, employing WMDs, & torture around the world to achieve its imperial aims of global domination. The Rumsfeld Doctrine is diametricly opposed to everything Americans have done & believed in over the years. Remember, we are supposed to be the leader of the Free World. Under the Rumsfeld Doctrine, we are not even a member of the Free World. | |
| | |
| 05-12-2004, 03:45 PM | #6 |
| Phrique's Stalker Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 2,332 | JCL - I'm sure that you are right re: Iraqis and I think it's shitty that Rumsfeld is trying to classify the prisoners in Iraq as terrorists when it's clear they are prisoners of war who should be protected by the Geneva conventions. However, when it comes to Al-Queda types, I think the legal interpretation is correct. They aren't prisoners of war and have no rights under the Geneva convention. To be quite honest with you, I don't think those psycho fundies deserve an ounce of compassion. The kill people who have nothing to do with anything and who don't even realize they are in a 'war'. I think Osama should die a terrible, awful death a million times over (which I think the best way to do that is to capture him and make it seem like he is fulling cooperating with the US, repenting for all of his acts AND--just for fun---becomes jewish!) I think it's a nice idea to be above all of that when it comes to terrorists but I think its unrealistic. I actually think it's a good theory to separate POW's from terrorists if it was done in a true manner...but that isn't what Rumsfeld is doing. |
| | |
| 05-12-2004, 04:13 PM | #7 |
| Dot whores are where it's @  Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 2,543  | I wouldn't care even if they WERE terrorists. No one should be treated that way. The only way to set a standard is to go by it, not matter what technicalities there may be. Eye for an eye mentality isn't going to help anyone. __________________ No one EVER suspects the Butterfly... |
| | |
| 05-12-2004, 04:16 PM | #8 | ||
| all over you, all over me  Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 13,893 | Wow, I spotted at least three typos in that article, but I digress. Quote:
Quote:
2. Some of those who have been kept there for 2 years (Jamal Udeen) were tortured, beaten and forcefully drugged, and later released without charge. Jamal's only crime is that noone was dumb enough to take pictures, and if they have, they've been either destroyed or covered up. 3. Its the decent human thing to do to not torture people, guilty or not. I just really don't understand the whole "they deserve it" mantra. *shrugs* I guess the whole innocent before proven guilty maxim that the USA has stood by as one of its cornerstone doctrines has been thrown out the window in this time of paranoia. Instead of "Reds under the bed" its "Arabs in the attic." Something tells me Joe McArthy would feel right at home. Matt  __________________ | ||
| | |
| 05-12-2004, 04:36 PM | #9 |
| Dragon of Gaia Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 16,693 | http://www.atforumz.com/showthread.php?t=232507 an excerpt from "Monday, March 29, 2004 Tales from Abu Ghraib..." "How old are you,M. ?" My mother asked kindly. "Nineteen." Came the reply. "And are you studying? Which college are you in?" The girl blushed furiously as she explained that she was studying Arabic literature but postponed the year because… "Because she was detained by the Americans." Umm Hassen finished angrily, shaking her head. "She's here to see Abu Hassen because her mother and three brothers are still in prison." Abu Hassen is lawyer who has taken on very few cases since the end of the war. He explained once that the current Iraqi legal system was like a jungle with no rules, a hundred lions, and thousands of hyenas. No one was sure which laws were applicable and which weren't; nothing could be done about corrupt judges and police and it was useless taking on criminal cases because if you won, the murderer/thief/looter's family would surely put you in your grave… or the criminal himself could do it personally after he was let out in a few weeks. This case was an exception. M. was the daughter of a deceased friend and she had come to Abu Hassen because she didn't know anyone else who was willing to get involved. On a cold night in November, M., her mother, and four brothers had been sleeping when their door suddenly came crashing down during the early hours of the morning. The scene that followed was one of chaos and confusion… screaming, shouting, cursing, pushing and pulling followed. The family were all gathered into the living room and the four sons- one of them only 15- were dragged away with bags over their heads. The mother and daughter were questioned- who was the man in the picture hanging on the wall? He was M.'s father who had died 6 years ago of a stroke. You're lying, they were told- wasn't he a part of some secret underground resistance cell? M.'s mother was hysterical by then- he was her dead husband and why were they taking away her sons? What had they done? They were supporting the resistance, came the answer through the interpreter. How were they supporting the resistance, their mother wanted to know? "You are contributing large sums of money to terrorists." The interpreter explained. The troops had received an anonymous tip that M.'s family were giving funds to support attacks on the troops. It was useless trying to explain that the family didn't have any 'funds'- ever since two of her sons lost their jobs at a factory that had closed down after the war, the family had been living off of the little money they got from a 'kushuk' or little shop that sold cigarettes, biscuits and candy to people in the neighborhood. They barely made enough to cover the cost of food! Nothing mattered. The mother and daughter were also taken away, with bags over their heads. Umm Hassen had been telling the story up until that moment, M. was only nodding her head in agreement and listening raptly, like it was someone else's story. She continued it from there… M. and her mother were taken to the airport for interrogation. M. remembers being in a room, with a bag over her head and bright lights above. She claimed she could see the shapes of figures through the little holes in the bag. She was made to sit on her knees, in the interrogation room while her mother was kicked and beaten to the ground. M.'s hands trembled as she held the cup of tea Umm Hassen had given her. Her face was very pale as she said, "I heard my mother begging them to please let me go and not hurt me… she told them she'd do anything- say anything- if they just let me go." After a couple hours of general abuse, the mother and daughter were divided, each one thrown into a seperate room for questioning. M. was questioned about everything concerning their family life- who came to visit them, who they were related to and when and under what circumstances her father had died. Hours later, the mother and daughter were taken to the infamous Abu Ghraib prison- home to thousands of criminals and innocents alike. In Abu Ghraib, they were seperated and M. suspected that her mother was taken to another prison outside of Baghdad. A couple of terrible months later- after witnessing several beatings and the rape of a male prisoner by one of the jailors- in mid-January, M. was suddenly set free and taken to her uncle's home where she found her youngest brother waiting for her. Her uncle, through some lawyers and contacts, had managed to extract M. and her 15-year-old brother from two different prisons. M. also learned that her mother was still in Abu Ghraib but they weren't sure about her three brothers. M. and her uncle later learned that a certain neighbor had made the false accusation against her family. The neighbor's 20-year-old son was still bitter over a fight he had several years ago with one of M.'s brothers. All he had to do was contact a certain translator who worked for the troops and give M.'s address. It was that easy. Abu Hassen was contacted by M. and her uncle because he was an old family friend and was willing to do the work free of charge. They have been trying to get her brothers and mother out ever since. I was enraged- why don't they contact the press? Why don't they contact the Red Cross?! What were they waiting for?! She shook her head sadly and said that they *had* contacted the Red Cross but they were just one case in thousands upon thousands- it would take forever to get to them. As for the press- was I crazy? How could she contact the press and risk the wrath of the American authorities while her mother and brothers were still imprisoned?! There were prisoners who had already gotten up to 15 years of prison for 'acting against the coallition'... she couldn't risk that. They would just have to be patient and do a lot of praying. By the end of her tale, M. was crying silently and my mother and Umm Hassen were hastily wiping away tears. All I could do was repeat, "I'm so sorry... I'm really sorry..." and a lot of other useless words. She shook her head and waved away my words of sympathy, "It's ok- really- I'm one of the lucky ones... all they did was beat me." |
| | |
| 05-12-2004, 05:13 PM | #10 |
| Dragon of Gaia Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 16,693 | http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/sto...S&SECTION=HOME May 12, 5:01 PM EDT Lawmakers: New Abuse Photos Show Torture By KEN GUGGENHEIM Associated Press Writer Frist says the pictures are very troubling. (Audio) WASHINGTON (AP) -- The abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. military personnel included torture, humiliation and forced sex beyond what has been seen in public, members of Congress said Wednesday after viewing fresh photos and videos in the scandal that has shaken the Bush administration. "I don't know how the hell these people got into our army," said Ben Nighthorse Campbell, R-Colo., one of several members of Congress who emerged grim-faced from lawmakers-only screenings in the Capitol. Lawmakers said they saw disturbing images that included military dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, Iraqi women commanded to expose their breasts and photos of sex acts, including forced homosexual sex. In addition, lawmakers said there were images of hooded Iraqi prisoners being forced to masturbate while cameras captured the scene. Rep. Jane Harman, D-Calif., said she saw a clothed man hurling himself against a wall as though trying to knock himself unconscious. "It was yet another series of pictures depicting horrific acts, examples of torture and sexual abuse," said Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota. The private screening marked the latest turn in a scandal that has prompted President Bush to apologize to the victims and Democrats to demand the dismissal of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld. More ominously, the abuse was cited in a grisly execution video posted Tuesday on the Web site of an Islamic militant group. The video showed the beheading of an American civilian who had been seized in Iraq, and included the claim that his death was revenge for the mistreatment of Iraqis at Abu Ghraib. Bush denounced the beheading Wednesday and said those responsible hoped to "shake our confidence." They will fail, he said, adding, "We will complete our mission." Most lawmakers said they opposed public release of the Iraqi prison pictures, which everyone agreed were stomach-turning. Sen. John Warner, R-Va., said making the images public could "possibly endanger the men and women of the armed forces." He and others also said public release could jeopardize the prosecution of U.S. personnel who were involved in the abuse. The screening for lawmakers reignited a debate over the extent of culpability for the abuse - whether it involved a relatively small number of personnel in a military police unit, or whether culpability went further up the chain of command. |
| | |
| 05-12-2004, 05:17 PM | #11 | |
| Phrique's Stalker Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 2,332 | Quote:
Do you have to go through psychological testing to get into the military? | |
| | |
| 05-12-2004, 05:28 PM | #12 | |
| Dragon of Gaia Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 16,693 |  Quote:
However, considering recent events, maybe they do, but only let you in if you flunk... | |
| | |
| 05-12-2004, 05:33 PM | #13 | |
| all over you, all over me Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 13,893 | Quote:
Besides, the stage of denile is long over...what, as Congressmen are you going to do about it? Matt __________________ | |
| | |
| 05-12-2004, 05:33 PM | #14 | |
| all over you, all over me Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 13,893 | Quote:
My guess is its probably as easy as shit to get in, so long as you aren't on drugs and/or pregnant. __________________ | |
| | |
|
« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
Linear Mode
|
|
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:33 PM.