Regarding abortion...

[Mentalese]

Actually, I'm a secular humanist.

As I said, that was a very brief summary, but SCT and consequentialism are linked.

I do NOT agree with the first versions of the Social Contract; they are TWISTED. Hobbes was confused. Well, he was pandering, at the very least. With the inclusion of the leviathan, that is. We need to thank him for what he gave us, then move on. Ditto for Rousseau, though he added some good concepts. His state of nature was absurdly positive.

If you'd like me to discuss a bit more on my stance on morality / politics, I'd be glad to.

[Erich w/ an h]

this thread =

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame65.html

[Mentalese]

Vik,

You need to get a few facts straight.

A fetus is NOT a woman.

Another thing:

You say, "A) killing = killing. Earlier, later, whatever. It's still killing a human being.
B) By the time most women know they're pregnant, the baby already has:
Day 20: Foundations of the brain, spinal cord, and nervous system are already astablished.
Day 21: The heart begins to beat.
Day 28: Backbone and muscles are froming. Arms, legs, eyes, and ears have begun to show.
Day 30: The heart is now beating it's own blood through it's own body. The placenta has formed a barrior that keeps the mother's blood seperate.
Day 40: Brain waves can be detected and recorded.
Week 6: The liver takes over the production of blood cells and the brain begins to control movement of muscles and organs.
(From what I understood from my doc when I was preggo, most women don't find out they're preggo till about 5 wks along or so... )"

A) You have to establish that it deserves the full rights of a baby.

B) Have I mentioned that it's not a baby? It's an embryo, then a fetus. And my cat is more developed than any embryo, yet it has no human rights at all.

We must not confuse potentiality with actuality. An embryo is a potential human being. It can, granted the woman’s choice, develop into an infant. But what it actually is during the first trimester is a mass of relatively undifferentiated cells that exist as a part of a woman’s body. If we consider what it is rather than what it might become, we must acknowledge that the embryo under three months is something far more primitive than a frog or a fish. To compare it to an infant is ludicrous.

If we are to accept the equation of the potential with the actual and call the embryo an “unborn child,” or, worse, a person, we could, with equal logic, call any adult an “unkilled corpse” and bury him alive or vivisect him for the instruction of medical students.


And one more thing, a sperm or egg has its own DNA.
We can freeze it so it NEVER dies. If you simply let it go, it will flow out with the menses. You have to actually implant it in a willing uterus, and that's the whole issue.


There's simply no way to remove an embryo without killing it, at least not until many months later. That's why we speak of abortion, not "removal".

[SeekerKosh]

While I'm not about to get dragged into another abortion debate (I stand clearly opposed to abortion though I believe a woman has the right to choose one, providing she is made fully aware she is terminating a human life), I would like to point something out:

I've had opportunity to see a few of Mentalese's posts, and I've come to the following conclusions:

--Mentalese does not care what anyone thinks, unless they agree with Mentalese.

--Mentalese doesn't want a free exchange of ideas, or even to engender debate; he(she) wants to beat down everyone else with his(her) ideas.

--Mentalese has stated that he(she) doesn't care if someone respects his(her) opinion, he(she) is only interested in "the truth"

--The truth as Mentalese sees it, has little to do with reality

--Mentalese, like Prince @dam, A_witness, and others condescends and mocks anyone who does not share his(her) opinion.

I'm unsubscribing to this thread, now, because although the anatomy of it does fascinate me, I'm tired of reading posts from someone who talks out of their ass.

[Erich w/ an h]

or in other words seekerkosh...

<a href="http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html"><img src="http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Stone%20Deaf.jpg" border=0></a>

stone deaf

[chloe dancer]

fastestslug wants to hump seekerkosh

[Mentalese]

Khamil,

I added you to my AIM buddy list, if you want to chat.

[SeekerKosh]

Oh, I'd also like to point out;

as a girl who loses her virginity often believes herself to be a seductive sex goddess, so does Mentalese seem to believe that reading a few college philosophy texts has given her the wisdom of Solomon.

This is your 12:15 AM wake-up call; YOU'RE IG'NANT!

Coffee's on the stove...hel yerself.

[A Copper Lily]

ok...i don't know where this thread is going, but...

what the fuck, vik? this is not the first time you've copied and pasted some stupid facts, then high-tail out of here...

what, are you not willing to defend yourself?

or, do you realize that all the facts in the world do not change THIS fact: women are experiencing unwanted pregnancies

ask yourself this: how are you helping to solve that problem?

get a fucking clue and realize that not every woman wants to make the same decision you did...not that you should regret your decision, OF COURSE...but that is what CHOICE is...get over it...you'll make your choices, i'll make mine...

"The moment the woman says "I'm having this baby", she has voluntarily given up many of her rights. This includes the right to smoke, to drink, to use various drugs."

<i>Agreed. But why not extend that to the moment the woman says, "I am choosing to have sex," she gives up her right to not want to face ALL of the possible consequences?? How many women who have sex don't know that one of the many possible consequences of sex is a baby?</i>

ok, i agree on the first point because you've chosen to take responsibility for bringing a child into the world...but to <i>extend</i> that logic to sex? are you out of your fucking mind? people have sex for many reasons; procreation is only one of them...there is something called contraception, sweetheart, and we need to find a way to make everyone aware of its accessibility, affordability, and effectiveness...and, god forbid, if that fails then abortion has got to be something to fall back on...but it starts with education and responsibility, darling, and describing stages of fetal development is never gonna stop unwanted pregnancy...i guess it's more fun to make others feel guilt than help them...

seekerkosh: i have yet to fully understand your pov

i hate these threads...why do i bother?

[foolish_mortal]

Mentalese - okay I've never studied philosophy so I don't fully understand what all your isms mean, although you've explained it a bit. So if I say something stupid that's why.

The moment the woman says "I'm having this baby", she has voluntarily given up many of her rights. This includes the right to smoke, to drink, to use various drugs. Her womb is now, as feminists deride it, the womb of the state.

I agree with this. But if I understand correctly what you are saying she still has the <i>option</i> to change her mind and kill it, at any point up until it becomes a person, whenever that is. Furthermore:

If she has decided she is going to kill it, she can smoke or drink or do whatever she wants, so long as she does actually go through with killing it.

If she smokes and drinks under the understanding that she will kill it and then decides not to kill it and allows it to develop, she has committed a crime.

If she decides to have it, and then smokes and drinks, and then decides not to have it and aborts it, she has not committed a crime. In other words it's not <i>quite</i> that she's given up her rights the moment she decides to have the baby.

I think basically if you bring a new person into the world you have a responsibility to do so in a way that is not damaging to the person, and give it a home and bring it up to the best of your abilities.

I would be interested to see how this applies to the father.

If you'd like me to discuss a bit more on my stance on morality / politics, I'd be glad to.

<b>Yes, please do.</b>

Vik - I don't mean to be rude but will you please stop doing that?

SeekerKosh - Yeah whenever I hear anyone say 'X does not listen to what anyone else thinks!' it's pretty clear that what they <i>really</i> mean is 'X disagrees what <i>I</i> think, despite my many unfocused rants on the subject, and therefore I'm going to block my ears and not listen to X.'

Isis - don't give up, I like your posts.

<i>Originally posted by Khamil</i>
The view that the value of an action derives solely from the value of its consequences.", doesn't give a normative measurement explaining why the state of war is reprehensible.

Yeah...
What I believe is, rights and responsibilities are creations of society. They have therefore evolved to be in the interests of the society rather than the interests of <i>all</i> the individuals that are a part of that society. While what is in the interests of society may benefit most of the individuals involved in that society, it clearly won't benefit all of them. In any society there will always be some people who will benefit more from what is detrimental to the society. I think the problem is that your social contract theory falls down because it assumes that those people could just leave if they wanted.

Firstly, a lot of societies won't allow you to leave them. Look at communist countries. So are those societies 'immoral' for doing that? If they were immoral, that would imply some sort of contract with a larger society wouldn't it? So let's say the larger society is the larg<i>est</i> society, 'the world'.... No one can really leave 'the world'. Ultimately I don't think it's really possible to leave all society. I mean you could say, let's designate a big are in the Nevada desert for everyone who doesn't want to be part of any society - but why should society do that to people who are not part of it - it has no obligations to them. In fact, as soon as you leave a society the most natural thing for the society to do would be to kill you or to re-enslave you, because you have immediately become a threat to that society.

Secondly, Even if all the people who weren't benefitting from society <i>could</i> leave, society would immediately restructure itself so that there were more people who weren't benefitting from it.

In other words, no society can exist without a degree of unfair coercion of individuals.

[Khamil]

What I believe is, rights and responsibilities are creations of society.

Even if all the people who weren't benefitting from society could leave, society would immediately restructure itself so that there were more people who weren't benefitting from it.

In other words, no society can exist without a degree of unfair coercion of individuals.

Society both shapes and is shaped by 'rights' and such. Rights are establighed by laws, which are passed by people, not 'society' as an abstract idea.

Also, coercion is not the same as governmentality, and people are under much greater influence in the way their values are shaped that through coercive force. For instance, I don't keep from stealing (per se) because i'm being forcefully constrained, but rather because i've been convinced it's ultimately not to my advantage. Similarly, there's no such thing as a society without norms and values, which are not coercive in nature, just merely convincing. Coercion isn't the basis prerquisit for society.

[foolish_mortal]

Originally posted by Khamil
Society both shapes and is shaped by 'rights' and such. Rights are establighed by laws, which are passed by people, not 'society' as an abstract idea.

Muwahahaha, that's just what they <i>want</i> you to think. Society is composed of its constituent parts and it also imposes its own will on its constituent parts through each other. Yes, it's just an 'idea' that doesn't really 'exist' as such, but so is everything if you think about it. Actions like passing laws are performed by individual human body cells, not by a 'person' as an abstract idea.... and so on.
Certainly laws are passed by people but they do so 'under the influence' of society. In turn society is shaped by these laws, which means that in turn all the people in the society act 'under the influence' of these laws. There's more to it than laws of course, there's also religion, art, traditions, attitudes, etc... this is basically leading to the idea of memes which you probably already know about.

Originally posted by Khamil
Also, coercion is not the same as governmentality, and people are under much greater influence in the way their values are shaped that through coercive force. For instance, I don't keep from stealing (per se) because i'm being forcefully constrained, but rather because i've been convinced it's ultimately not to my advantage. Similarly, there's no such thing as a society without norms and values, which are not coercive in nature, just merely convincing. Coercion isn't the basis prerquisit for society.

Your 'values' are shaped by your parent's discipline which is basically achieved through coercive force or the threat of it. You are convinced it's not to your advantage to steal firstly because you could be caught and punished (force), and secondly because of the way your 'values' are shaped (also force).

[Mentia]

Originally posted by Isis
women are experiencing unwanted pregnancies

ask yourself this: how are you helping to solve that problem?

Yea! I was listening to a talk radio show a while ago when the two hosts got on the topic of abortion, and the pro-choice host asked this question of the pro-life host. I think it's a great question because it has the potential to really make pro-lifers think a bit. Personally, I'm not out to change the entire world..it simply can't be done..but if I can make just a few people seriously think these things out, it makes me fee like I've made a difference.

As a sidenote..I've often wondered what the majority of prolifers think about the "morning-after" pill, which prevents a pregnancy from starting within 72 hours of sexual intercourse..it's not really an abortion because it stops the beginnings of a baby from even taking place..but I can see how it could be seen or mistaken for an abortion. Pro-lifers..opinions?


-Annemarie-

np: The John & Jeff Show

[Spinalcold]

I'm kinda undecided...but I do beleive it's murder....however if it does endanger the mothers life.....

Well, a few years back I wrote a short storie about it. I don't know what inspired it, but here it is, read it if your interest, it's actually quite good in my opinion

[Spinalcold]

not sure how the attachment files work here so...

Your life in a shard
by Chad Nelson
Copyright (c) 1998 by Chad Nelson

A tear glided it’s way down Selenna’s golden tanned cheek. Seth let his hand slide off her face, taking her tear with it. She looked into his eyes with disbelief and sadness as he turned his back and walked away down the busy, cement bridge. Tears obscured her vision, only moments ago everything was perfect, or at least that is what she thought.
Yesterday she nervously had got on the phone to tell him she was pregnant with his baby. He had taken it well, a bit hesitantly, which was understandable, and asked her to meet him on the bridge the next day, which is where she was standing now. Thinking he was going to propose to her and they were going to be a family, she arrived bubbly in a way only a woman in love could be. They had been dating for nearly two years now, and she felt ready to take another step. She arrived and when she talked to him, her emotions took a spin in the opposite direction.
Now he wanted her to have an abortion, either that, or he would break up with her. She leaned over the coarse guardrail, the small pebbles dug into her exposed elbows. She hung her head, her long, soft, dark hair fell about her face, shielding her from the world. She wore a white T-shirt and black jeans which hugged her breathtaking form. Her usually soft facial features sagged with hurt and twitching slightly with pain.
Her eyes were closed, trying to take some comfort in the darkness, none came to her. Seth knew what she thought of abortions, he wanted her to take a life. Not just anyone’s life, someone who was a part of her, and a part of Seth. How could he expect her to do such a thing? Why would he want her to?
“Damn it Seth, you know how I feel about this. You feel the same way, so why?” She said to herself as she pushed herself away from the cement guardrail and walked down the bridge, the opposite way Seth had went.
It was a blistering hot day, the sun’s strong rays scorched her skin, the air was hot and muggy, not even a small breeze brushed across her skin. Vehicles constantly roared by her, leaving her no peace, she wanted silence, peace, an escape from all activity, from all life.
Head hung, tears filling her eyes and running down her cheeks, her head was racked with arguments, ‘I’ll lose him if I don’t. But that’s no reason to murder. Maybe unborn babies aren’t real people after all. No, I’ve believed it all my life, I can’t change my mind just because I’m faced with it. But I love him. Seth! Why did you do this to me!’ The arguments made a war zone of her mind, yelling back and forth, but getting no where. Tears still rolled down her cheeks, but she never noticed, all she felt was her inner pain.
She bounced off someone, muttering an apology she continued on her way to where she had left her car which was at a park just across the street from the bridge. She wiped the tears from her eyes and looked up to see where she was. Her eyes focused on a couple, laughing and holding hands. They looked out over the water, looking and smiling at each other occasionally. Selenna paused in her slow walk and smiled, her and Seth had been like that, up until a couple minutes ago.
‘I must do this, I love him, I want my life back the way it was. We will get married and have a family in due time. Besides I don’t even know my baby yet.’ She smiled slightly, the back of her mind never let up in the argument though, but it couldn’t be heard, she wouldn’t listen to it.
Snap! She looked down in surprise, gasping slightly, and she lifted her foot. Underneath was a broken glass bottle, laying in shards on the cement. She looked at it, in one of the larger shards she saw a picture of herself. Her mind, in such a fragile state, saw the broken bottle as her baby, a part of herself.
Tears burst into her eyes again as she realized she was ready to kill her own blood and body, and Seth’s. How could she be thinking such a thing, but she still was. She continued walking, the woman from the couple calling to her, “Miss?” The woman gave a half smile to her boyfriend who shrugged and she turned back to the water.
Selenna walked off the bridge thinking of what her life would be like without Seth, she couldn’t remember how her life had been before he had come in. Stopping at a busy street corner she waited for the right tie to cross, then briskly moved across to the park on the other side.
Giant trees stood around the colorful park, flowers grew all over. She walked along the cement block paths, stopping for nothing, she wasn’t here to look at flowers, but she didn’t want to go back home again, she didn’t feel like going anywhere.
She saw a green shack with a shady place beside it, quickly she crossed over the green grass to get out of the sun. Pushing herself up on the box she sighed and her gaze wandered into the wispy clouds strewn about in the sky. She sought an escape, but she knew she couldn’t find one, no matter how hard she would try, no matter how long she tried to delay a decision, she would still have to make one.
Hearing a low bong she looked to her right through a wire mesh fence. A train ride pulled out from behind a bush, packed with parents and children. Children pointed about, talking in loud excited voices. One mother smiled and plucked a small girl off the floor, giving her a kiss and a warm hug, the child returned the hug.
The corner of Selenna’s mouth rose slightly, she saw herself and her child. The train went into a small tunnel, screams of children came howling out, the train exited the tunnel and immediately it was changed to laughter. Selenna laughed a bit along with them.
She rose and walked towards her car, when she get’s home, she’s going to call Seth to tell him good-bye.